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Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

lazowska.cs.washington.edu

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Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#131

Post by Dewie »

wanderingstan wrote: post #60
kimdouglasmason wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. Having everyone knowing how to code is the opposite of specialisation. It's inefficient and pointless. If a certain profession needs a piece of software, it's much more efficient for specialist developers to consult with domain experts, write that software, and sell it into the industry. Having every (for example) doctor being able to code adds negligible value, and I would argue the opportunit…

Someone a thousand years ago would have dictated to his scribe the following: "Having everyone knowing how to read and write is the opposite of specialisation. It's inefficient and pointless. If a certain profession needs a document, it's much more efficient for specialist scribes to consult with domain experts, write that document, and sell it into the industry. Having every (for example) doctor being able to read a…

That rhetorical device only works if there is a clear parallel. Simply replacing the words does not make for a convincing counter-point, in itself. For example, "If a certain profession needs a document, it's much more efficient for specialist scribes to consult with domain experts, write that document, and sell it into the industry", but most in this industry can't/don't need to read: how will 'the industry' benefit from documents if they can't read? That goes back to kim's point about dissemination of knowledge.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#132

Post by tomp »

lukasm wrote: post #13
malloreon wrote: post #5

How about "Possibly, they see people making ridiculous amounts of money in tech and want a piece of it?"

I've seen a few surveys claiming that money is 1st motivator. People are attracted to high paying jobs not only for a financial gain. It's a signal that employer cares and other good people will be there.

If that's the signal, it's not a very good signal. Finance jobs can be horrible, they don't care for you (they literally let you die), they only care for the top performers who then get promoted in a few years.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#133

Post by asdfologist »

graycat wrote: post #95
asdfologist wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing all these high numbers getting thrown around a lot. Is $300K really the typical pay among, say, 5th year Google engineers who joined out of college? If so that's pretty amazing.

Early in my career in software I was making six times what a high end, new Camaro cost. That might be $300 K now.

Early in his career, Bill Gates was making millions of dollars.

I never saw any convincing data on HN to back up the claims - it's always an anecdotal data point here and there. My guess is that a small fraction of the engineers actually make the stated figures, and confirmation bias leads HNers to believe that's the median pay.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#134

Post by pekk »

codesuela wrote: post #78
randomdata wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that $50K is the median household income. Individuals earn even less, on average.

this is a perfect illustration of why people protest the Google Shuttles in SF

What? Google has the right to rent a bus as much as its employees have the right to pay for taxis. Or their own cars.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#135

Post by hsitz »

mhurron wrote: post #128
jimmaswell wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>credit-fillers that students have to take in order to graduate. This structure works out well for everyone: the university ensures that students are getting a well-rounded education (as opposed to a trade-school degree) Do you really think the irrelevant classes are necessary at this level though? The student has had all of elementary through high school to be exposed to the broad subject range. By the time you ente…

> Do you really think universities believe in the "rounded education" goal This was the traditional role of Universities. It's only recently that they have become pressured to become trade schools and remove anything deemed 'unnecessary' or 'non-profitable.' Of course when Universities filled that role, you didn't have choices as to what to use as, as you term it, irrelevant classes. Everyone had to have a broader ed…

Yes, yes, yes. I think good universities (i.e, most of their faculty and administration) still believe strongly in the "rounded education" goal. As you say, historically universities sought to provide a liberal education, regarding subjects that "were considered essential for a free person (a citizen) to know in order to take an active part in civic life. . . . The aim of these studies was to produce a virtuous, knowledgeable, and articulate person." [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts ]

It's mostly the students now who don't believe in a well-rounded education, who just want to prepare themselves for a job. I'm fifty years old and I've observed the trend towards higher education becoming more and more like vocational education. It began before I was born, but it surely seems to be accelerating. Frequent articles on whether college can be "economically justified" are representative of this. Formerly, there was no question of whether a liberal arts (i.e., "well rounded") education would somehow "pay off". It was something desirable for its own sake, part of becoming a better person.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#136

Post by [deleted] »

tomp wrote: post #132
lukasm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a few surveys claiming that money is 1st motivator. People are attracted to high paying jobs not only for a financial gain. It's a signal that employer cares and other good people will be there.

If that's the signal, it's not a very good signal. Finance jobs can be horrible, they don't care for you (they literally let you die), they only care for the top performers who then get promoted in a few years.

[deleted]

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#137

Post by asdfologist »

lukasm wrote: post #13
malloreon wrote: post #5

How about "Possibly, they see people making ridiculous amounts of money in tech and want a piece of it?"

I've seen a few surveys claiming that money is 1st motivator. People are attracted to high paying jobs not only for a financial gain. It's a signal that employer cares and other good people will be there.

I think it's a lousy signal if you don't at least control for location, job function, and working hours.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#138

Post by unclebucknasty »

mhurron wrote: post #128
jimmaswell wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>credit-fillers that students have to take in order to graduate. This structure works out well for everyone: the university ensures that students are getting a well-rounded education (as opposed to a trade-school degree) Do you really think the irrelevant classes are necessary at this level though? The student has had all of elementary through high school to be exposed to the broad subject range. By the time you ente…

> Do you really think universities believe in the "rounded education" goal This was the traditional role of Universities. It's only recently that they have become pressured to become trade schools and remove anything deemed 'unnecessary' or 'non-profitable.' Of course when Universities filled that role, you didn't have choices as to what to use as, as you term it, irrelevant classes. Everyone had to have a broader ed…

>It's only recently that they have become pressured to become trade schools and remove anything deemed 'unnecessary' or 'non-profitable.'

They've come under this pressure because of the changed realities of the contemporary job market, combined with the rising cost of higher education.

College is largely an economic decision for the vast majority of people who attend. Unfortunately, some only realize this soon after graduating, unemployable with a mountain of debt.

So, this notion of churning out "well-rounded" students is an anachronism. Companies care about the hard skillset for which they are hiring. Period. In fact, they increasingly want people who are specialized beyond even a degree, let alone caring about what, say, a dev hire knows about biology.

In short, a trade school approach is exactly what we need, as it most accurately reflects the realities of the new job market.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#139

Post by lukasm »

asdfologist wrote: post #137
lukasm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a few surveys claiming that money is 1st motivator. People are attracted to high paying jobs not only for a financial gain. It's a signal that employer cares and other good people will be there.

I think it's a lousy signal if you don't at least control for location, job function, and working hours.

It's not a first pass filter, but if you remove obviously bad it's pretty good.

Re: Responding to the Explosion of Student Interest in Computer Science [pdf]

#140

Post by webmaven »

TheEzEzz wrote: post #76
wanderingstan wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone a thousand years ago would have dictated to his scribe the following: "Having everyone knowing how to read and write is the opposite of specialisation. It's inefficient and pointless. If a certain profession needs a document, it's much more efficient for specialist scribes to consult with domain experts, write that document, and sell it into the industry. Having every (for example) doctor being able to read a…

This is an alluring retort, but I have to agree with kimdouglasmason that it has no actual weight. kimdouglasmason explains and gives examples of why literacy has had such a huge impact on the world. You give no examples of how code literacy will have similar impacts. You just make an analogy and say it will affect the world "in ways we can't imagine". Your argument could just as easily apply to electrical engineerin…

The electrical equivalent of everyone knowing the basics of computation isn't 'understanding maxwells equations' it is being able to wire up a battery and a light bulb.
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