Live data from Hacker News

The logic of Buddhist philosophy

aeon.co

131–140 of 210 posts

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#131
post #125
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering how much Aristotle's metaphysics of essence may have hindered certain paths of thought. :) You must admit, his base system is powerful and ever-penetrating (Descartes is probably a very good example, but it's only one of the more obvious ones...) Of course it's easy to say things like that, and harder to come up with a consistent (pun intended) metaphysical system on your own self. :)

Speaking of Descartes, I've always thought that the famous quote supposed to be by him, i.e. "I think, therefore I am": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum is (vaguely? :) wrong. Shouldn't it be: "I am, therefore I (can) think"?

Hmm. I don't think so, but, feel free to expand your opinion (why do you think it should be "I am, therefore I (can) think"? Maybe you have an interesting point to make?)

Re: etymology, it's pretty much "think => exist."

Re: conceptual level: well, one of the texts where this whole concept/causal-chain is introduced is in his "Meditations on First Philosophy"[1], in particular, in Meditation 2.

Very (very) roughly (and from bad memory), the idea is that one can first start casting into doubt everything that there is (skepticism as a method) (this is Meditation 1.) When you abstract enough times, you can start doubting even the certainty of things which may seem true in themselves (this latter notion is an endless field of debate in itself; see e.g. Quine's "Two Dogmas of Empiricism"[2]) - cliche example is "2+2=4."

Say there's a deceitful daemon: each time the thought "2+2" is produced, the daemon "intercepts" the answer and produces a "5". (Yes, I'm saying that Descartes may be one of the originators of the concept of a MitM, ha!) (Also, this doesn't work so well with mathematics, since again, one could say that mathematical statements are "analytically true", and it's simply not true that one may mistake a "5" for a "4". But imagine something more mundane: each time you think if there is a god, the daemon deceives you into thinking there isn't one; whatnot.)

So now you generalize the doubt process enough to start doubting whether anything exists, what-so-ever. The point is not so much in thinking that there isn't anything, but in removing certainty from usual ontological assumptions (what (kinds of) things exist.)

So now you're not certain if there is an "I": you are able to doubt it.

But then Descartes says that this very process of certainty-removal requires an operation (he doesn't use these words, did I say this is extremely rough): namely, the "doubt" itself. "Doubts are to be had."

Or, if you will (and closer to D. (I think)): if an evil daemon can cast into doubt even the existence of your own self - it it can deceive everything, etc. - there needs to be a something to be deceived. Or at the very least, the process of deception (or: of doubt) does happen (if you want to cast everything into doubt.)

So if you doubt that anything exists and hence can not be certain of anything, then it so happens that this requires doubt "to happen." Hence "doubt exists." (He also says (I think) that, basically, "clearly since I am doubting right now, doubt does happen". A kind of phenomenological argument, which doesn't really stick with me, fwiw. He then starts using the notion of "clear and distinct perception", and that's where things go downhill imho (Meditation 3, a (kind of circular) proof of God, etc.) But I have few qualms about Meditation 2, and this includes cogito ergo sum.)

(You could say that the only thing one can be certain of is that "there are thoughts" (not an "I"). I would agree with this. "Thinking exists." And since "thinking" would be, well, thinking this thought, it is certain that "thinking exists.")

edited to include two paragraphs (this+next one): So now we (hopefully) have something that exists for certain; thoughts exist (or somesuch.) Descartes claims a bit more: this entity that does the thinking (there does need to be an agent which thinks those thoughts (is what he assumes, I guess)) - let us just say it is "I", who does the thinking/doubting - when we trace back the process by which we concluded that we are certain that it exists - involves us discovering that thinking/doubting definitely does take place. Hence "I think; I exist."

(I suppose you could have a concept of an "I" that is simply instrumental (doesn't have independent substance (oof, this is dangerous/slippery territory)): thoughts can have relations, and related thoughts can be seen as "bundles", and this process producing continuing interrelated bundles is "the I doing the thinking." But, I'm not sure of this at all. Maybe D. would say that the deceiving daemon needs to deceive something, if it does actually do any deceiving; and if this does happen, then this "something" which is being deceived is (let us call it an) "I".)

Now, to go from cogito ergo sum to proof of God and subsequent re-establishment of certainty about the whole world - that is something else. And I don't think that he does a very good job at it. (And this is "usually", "generally" agreed upon.)

[1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Meditations_on_First_Philosop... - which btw is an easier read than you might think, if you're curious enough!

[2]: http://www.ditext.com/quine/quine.html

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#132

Paradox is not really so alien to Western philosophy, as this article initially suggests. It does end up referencing a number of modern Western philosophers, but the idea is older than that. It's ironic he refers to "Western orthodoxy" as being strictly anti-paradox, as traditional Christian theology is full of official paradoxes; a major example would be the doctrine that Jesus is simultaneously fully human and full…

I don't believe that what most would consider to be 'Western philosophy' would properly include religious thought, including 'traditional Christian theology.' This is not to deny that early philosophy was coincident with religion, just as was early scientific thought. But I think that to argue that the paradoxes of theology is relevant to what would in any meaningful sense be considered remotely modern Western Philosophy is mistaken. It is perhaps for this reason that philosophy and religion and science are different 'subjects.' There are overlaps to be sure (the philosophy of religion or scientific studies of religious experience) but these fields are distinct for a reason. And by and large the author makes a very fair point that the Aristotelean principles have guided western philosophy and science whereas religion has gone its own way.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#133
post #38
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would have enjoyed this article if it dropped the Buddhism and kept the math. May I ask you why? Personally I enjoy reading about the origin of some particular idea/philosophy, even when it's purely anecdotal.

It's interesting, but the problem I have with the presentation is that the modern manifestation of this idea has nothing to do with Buddhism. While we can maybe say that Buddhism came up with some similar-looking stuff, there's no causal link, and the philosophical systems are not working within the same paradigm. Like seeing a human face on the surface of Mars, this is an example of coincidence more than any deep co…

But this is part of the point of the article:

The philosophy of Buddhism that seems strange and illogical to many who are used to Western philosophy and classical logic actually fit into systems of logic that were conceived separately, without knowledge of Buddhist philosophy.

Buddhism serves both as an example of how these systems can be useful (they allow us to subject unusual - to us - systems of philosophy to rigorous logical treatments), and as an example of how philosophical traditions that can seem unusual and "weird" and that we might dismiss as illogical may simply follow different rules to what we are used to.

For my part, without relating the maths to something else - like Buddhist philosophy - the maths would have been quite uninteresting.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have any problem imagining systems with true, false, both and neither. You just treat them as anonymous values with particular operations, instead of getting stuck on "but if we were in this other system that we're not in, this would violate an axiom!". It's not quite that simple. We've built up entire codes of ethics and law and branches of mathematics with practical applications like computing that rely u…

> law The law is about as non-binary as it gets. There are two states of the law: proven guilty, and not proven guilty. We say things like "innocent until proven guilty" but we all know and accept that reality does not work that way. There is no law of the excluded middle here. EDIT: Actually, adding some excluded middle might make our law better and more fair. For example, cases could be dismissed if it is shown tha…

I believe in law it is perfectly possible to settle with no admission of guilt. Are you then innocent or guilty?

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#135
post #37

Central to his teachings is the view that things are ‘empty’ (sunya). This does not mean that they are non-existent; only that they are what they are because of how they relate to other things. Immediately I thought of Category Theory as this statement is a not terrible expression of what CT tries to teach. I'll immediately recommend the paper Numbers Can Be Just What They Have To ( http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/phil/Nu…

>which is to say "the collection of all ways to relate an object to other objects is isomorphic to the object itself".

That reminds me of the time someone explained attributes in terms of relationships, using Magic: The Gathering as an example. In MtG, you have a player's creatures attacking the other player. Some of the flying ability, which means they can only be blocked by flying creatures. You can express that as "may only be blocked by creatures with this ability".

There are also (a few) creatures can that can only be blocked and can only block flying creatures (which is not as good as flying), which you can express as "my only block or be blocked by creatures with the ability A", where A is the self-referential description of flying.

I imagine you can stack it further and replace "player", "attack", and so on with some other relational/self-referential definition.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#136

"An abhorrence of contradiction has been high orthodoxy in the West for more than 2,000 years." Not necessarily so, just a particular branch of western thinking and tradition now widely called the analytic tradition. GWF Hegel and Karl Marx had philosophies that deeply and profoundly embraced contradictions. Neither tried to abolish them, but instead to embrace them. To quote Marx in "Capital Volume 1": "This is, in…

In Marx case - at least in your example - he is not using "contradiction" in a formal logic sense. He is using it in the sense of the contradicting forces of dialectical contradictions.

Marx specifically used different terms when referring to contradictions of formal logic.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#137
post #95

In case anyone is turned off by the expectation of wishy-washy flim-flam, it's worth noting that Graham Priest may be a professor of philosophy, but is most well known for his work in logic, particularly in non-standard logics (i.e. not propositional or predicate logic) that allow non-boolean truth values, or weaken or remove some of the axioms of classical logic. I assume that what's relevant here will be his work o…

Fuzzy logic is a vary useful non boolean logic system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic In practice it's somewhat like neural net's but in a far more human readable format and vary useful for things like washing machines that have lot's of flakey sensors and little processing power. But the basic idea is statements truth is percentage based. For example "this statement is true" would be 50% true and there is…

One of the interesting properties of fuzzy logic is that you can model boolean logic as a special case.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#138

"An abhorrence of contradiction has been high orthodoxy in the West for more than 2,000 years." Not necessarily so, just a particular branch of western thinking and tradition now widely called the analytic tradition. GWF Hegel and Karl Marx had philosophies that deeply and profoundly embraced contradictions. Neither tried to abolish them, but instead to embrace them. To quote Marx in "Capital Volume 1": "This is, in…

For all the talk of Marx as having a philosophy that embraced contradictions I am a little sceptical of the way that this is frequently represented. Hegel certainly did have a philosophy that embraced contradiction and Marx certainly drew from his system as a mode of expression but his work was rooted IN the world and the kinds of contradictions he pointed out where not logical contradictions but rather opposing forces that demanded resolution.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#139
post #136

"An abhorrence of contradiction has been high orthodoxy in the West for more than 2,000 years." Not necessarily so, just a particular branch of western thinking and tradition now widely called the analytic tradition. GWF Hegel and Karl Marx had philosophies that deeply and profoundly embraced contradictions. Neither tried to abolish them, but instead to embrace them. To quote Marx in "Capital Volume 1": "This is, in…

In Marx case - at least in your example - he is not using "contradiction" in a formal logic sense. He is using it in the sense of the contradicting forces of dialectical contradictions . Marx specifically used different terms when referring to contradictions of formal logic.

Exactly. (just posted same point.) Even those 'dialectical contradictions' are perhaps better described as opposing forces that set in train a dialectical resolution.

Re: The logic of Buddhist philosophy

#140
post #59

Fascinating essay. I enjoy and appreciate the references to Buddhist ("Eastern") philosophies given that the paradoxical thinking is what most of us attribute to it. What is the catch with Aeon? There don't seem to be ads, paywalls, subscriptions, or other monetizing strategies, but the content seems fantastic. Is it charitable intellectualism?

I LOVE the fact that you can download to read later!
Post reply on HN