A nation of slaves • Hacker News Board

Re: A nation of slaves

#131

Post by socalnate1 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #112

The discussion here ( http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra... ) which is linked from the original post is, imo, more interesting and thought provoking. I think most people can immediately identify with the idea of "working" 40 hours while really only doing 15 hours of hard work and 25 hours of paper pushing and procrastinating. Maybe not in your current job but almost certainly in some job you…

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law, "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion."

I don't think most people make the conscious choice to drag out their work, it just happens naturally as our work expands to fill the time we've committed to being in the office.

Re: A nation of slaves

#132

Post by druidsbane » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #112

The discussion here ( http://libcom.org/library/phenomenon-bullshit-jobs-david-gra... ) which is linked from the original post is, imo, more interesting and thought provoking. I think most people can immediately identify with the idea of "working" 40 hours while really only doing 15 hours of hard work and 25 hours of paper pushing and procrastinating. Maybe not in your current job but almost certainly in some job you…

Original source for the above link: http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

Re: A nation of slaves

#133

Post by lotharbot » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #100

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #2

An unconditional basic income[1] would speed up a paradigm shift from the current "work or starve" society. Maybe our grandchildren will look back to this time and make funny jokes about digging and filling holes... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

FYI, I created an infographic recently that teaches people all the details they need to know about basic income: http://i.imgur.com/eRuO1ix.png

Milton Friedman was a strong proponent of (a variant of) Basic Income.

Re: A nation of slaves

#134

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:58 PM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #107

raldi wrote: post #84

This article is predicated on the idea that, because we're more efficient today than 1930, we should be able to work less and live the same lifestyle. Well, in fact, we can. But you can't ignore those last three words: you have to live the same lifestyle as a typical 1930s person. * No internet. * No TV. * No air conditioning. * No cell phone. * No car. * Bunk beds for your kids. * One bathroom for the whole house. *…

Isn't a lot of that productivity exactly because of all those technologies (and more)? Then how does it make sense to stop using all of those things in order to work less? The Internet helps a knowledge worker to be productive (also enables some procrastination, but oh well). Is canceling your Internet subscription and consulting your 20 volume, 10 year old encyclopedia a benefit? Same goes for cell phones and cars.…

Because maintaining and advancing those things takes work. If you work less, you won't be able to afford that Internet subscription and $1000 in hardware to access it, you won't afford the $3.30/gal gas for commuting, you won't afford the iPhone with data plan, etc. Your employer will have to extend deadlines and cancel projects because you (along with everyone else thinking less work is a great idea) just aren't producing 4x your new relaxed hours, and thus tech won't be advancing nearly as fast and may not even keep up with the stresses of growing population. Doctors cut back their hours, and people consequently die in the ER. Lacking the now-deceased cell tower maintenance guy, your cheap cell phone doesn't work any more, and the reduced-hours landline installer for your area is booked for the next 2 years. Wanting to find a clever solution, you realize you can't access Wikipedia for a simple but very relevant factoid, and have to go to a local garage sale to pick up a 20 volume 10 year old encyclopedia - and carry it back, because you can't afford to repair the car.

The Red Queen was right: sometimes you have to run (work) hard just to stay where you are; slow down, and you'll go backwards.

Re: A nation of slaves

#135

Post by infruset » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

tambourine_man wrote: post #47

vijayr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

what makes one person a success and another a failure Why not abandon the notion altogether? This is not a competition.

I think it is interesting that in French, this notion of a person being successful has no natural translation (although you can say it if you really want to) and it is something I never hear being mentioned.

Re: A nation of slaves

#136

Post by infruset » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

tambourine_man wrote: post #47

vijayr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

what makes one person a success and another a failure Why not abandon the notion altogether? This is not a competition.

I think it is interesting that in French, this notion of a person being successful has no natural translation (although you can say it if you really want to) and it is something I never hear being mentioned.

Re: A nation of slaves

#137

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:03 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #126

mkr-hn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local trash company (Winder, Georgia) switched to these recently. As much as I like new tech, I wonder about the two guys who used to run off to each side of the road to grab cans. Did they find new jobs?

So much for minimum wage. Cost of automation was cheaper than hiring two guys to do the same. Ask 'em if they'd have taken a pay cut to not have their jobs cut.

On the plus side, Barrow County is getting a lot of new stuff. They might have gone off to Bogart to get a job at the new Caterpillar plant, or to the retail development on University Parkway.

It's still not great to be replaced by a robot, but it's not a hopeless situation here like it is in a lot of places.

Re: A nation of slaves

#138

Post by chc » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

bluntly_said wrote: post #106

fidotron wrote: post #38

This looks like a lot of words to disguise the fact it's neo-luddism. With technological progress worker roles are eliminated, but the idea is that the market has demand for new currently non-existent things and as the progress enables those things to come into existence creating new jobs as it goes. The much larger problem is people are genuinely getting conditioned to receiving a lot for nothing, and this has disto…

I see the Neo-luddism argument thrown out a lot when discussions pop up around basic income. It's bullshit. Basic Income does not in any way support or suggest opposition to technology. In general, technology has made life better for everyone. It's not an issue that basic income is trying to solve. The problem is that technology within a capitalist system allows automation to concentrate wealth. It's very easy for th…

I think this would be better stated without hostile statements like "It's bullshit." That puts the very people you're trying to convince into a defensive mindset.

Re: A nation of slaves

#139

Post by Dewie » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #134

Dewie wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a lot of that productivity exactly because of all those technologies (and more)? Then how does it make sense to stop using all of those things in order to work less? The Internet helps a knowledge worker to be productive (also enables some procrastination, but oh well). Is canceling your Internet subscription and consulting your 20 volume, 10 year old encyclopedia a benefit? Same goes for cell phones and cars.…

Because maintaining and advancing those things takes work . If you work less, you won't be able to afford that Internet subscription and $1000 in hardware to access it, you won't afford the $3.30/gal gas for commuting, you won't afford the iPhone with data plan, etc. Your employer will have to extend deadlines and cancel projects because you (along with everyone else thinking less work is a great idea) just aren't pr…

Well, yeah, exactly. I doesn't make sense to live technologically as if we're in the 30's, because modern technology is the reason for our productivity.

Re: A nation of slaves

#140

Post by pdonis » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #64

vijayr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure Regardless of age, I guess most people feel this way (not just the previous generations - even the people in their 20's and 30's today). What is the alternative to this? If not work - what is important? what makes one person a success and another a failure, and what gives purpose and dignity to life, in your opi…

This man[1] didn't work much in his life, he mocked Alexander the Great[2] and it's pretty much famous for his views almost 2500 years after his death. It's quite an accomplishment given the fact that he chose to live as poor man in a very rich society. Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should…

Aristotle also has stated that More than 3 hours work per day, equals slavery

Yes, and he was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' work.

and I'm pretty sure Socrates would have argued that If you don't want to work you should not be working.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, since he, like Aristotle, was perfectly happy to live comfortably by making use of the products of slaves' work, and as far as I know, he never asked the slaves how they felt about it.