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Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

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Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, discourage me. Come out in the public square and let's have it out. You use your powers of free speech and persuasion and convince me I'm wrong. If I feel strongly about my opinions, I'll do the same to try to persuade you that you're wrong. Democracy at work. Start poking around to find whatever job I have and then try to get me fired? Really? That counts as "discouragement" in your book? You realize, of cours…

As a practical matter, the less money you have, the less you can fund your attempts to have me killed.

What about folks who think substantial U.S. carbon emission restrictions aren't a smart or effective policy and politically donate to that effect? There are likely a lot of people here who believe passionately that such inaction will lead to an uninhabitable planet. Serious, life-and-death stuff. Worth trying to get someone fired from their tech job?

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#132
post #86
post #65

I'd like to urge everyone to consider whether it's a good idea to comment on this story. If you voice an opinion in support of Eich, obviously that's going to be a liability in the future. But voicing an opinion against him is also a liability - there is no telling how the zeitgeist might change ten or twenty years from now. I think it's best to voice no opinion at all - and I hope this comment is not misconstrued as…

And I would argue that fighting against marriage rights (for LGBT) is our version of Jim Crow laws. History will show that people; all people deserve equal rights and protections under the law. Desegregation took decades, and arguably still isn't completely successful, given laws that disproportionately target black communities. And this isn't about a church refusing to marry someone because of their sexuality. This…

I agree it's pretty bad, but not being able to marry is not as severe as segregation and discrimination in almost everything (and against a much larger portion of the population.)

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#133
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the not in "but not in others" is over-qualifying. Saying that Mozilla does not value gay rights because of 1000 dollars, donated once, indirectly associated with Mozilla is a crazy given how much they actually spend directly on supporting the cause yearly. I'm not saying that a care package for 1.000 dollars negates Eichs contribution. But you can't say they don't value gay rights either.

What type of person you choose to head your operations obviously reflects your ideals. It really doesn't matter if Mr. Eich donated 1000 dollars or a million dollars, he opposes basic human rights. And apparently Mozilla is fine with that.

This is silly, almost fascist.

What next?

If a person doesn't donate to a campaign supporting gay marriage, does that mean the person is a bigot and homophobic?

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#134
post #45

I'm trying to keep this in perspective with all the massively positive things that Mozilla has done over the years. I've used Firefox all the time, proclaimed the value of Mozilla to others, and even donated to Mozilla. Regardless, I'm having a hard time getting past this. I started up Firefox this morning, and almost immediately, I felt dirty. I closed it and switched over to Chromium. I can't buy the argument that…

Will you boycott every company that has an employee that has belief that isn't yours? Isn't that the definition of intolerance? One of those things, I guess, can't tolerate the intolerant =).

Read the comment you're replying to: it specifically mentioned a series of beliefs that the commenter would not go to the lengths of boycotting over.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#135
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of person you choose to head your operations obviously reflects your ideals. It really doesn't matter if Mr. Eich donated 1000 dollars or a million dollars, he opposes basic human rights. And apparently Mozilla is fine with that.

Gay marriage isn't a 'basic human right'. It's subscribing to a governmental institution.

This isn't about gay marriage, per se. It's about carving out exceptions to the general writ of legal equality for all guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#136
There's a common wrong argument against this sort of boycott, but its comparably common rebuttal is subtly wrong as well.

common wrong argument: This is a violation of Eich's freedom of speech.

subtly wrong rebuttal: The First Amendment protects you against government infringement of free speech (including campaign donations, since money is "speech"), but it doesn't protect you against the social consequences of that speech.

While true on its surface, the reason this rebuttal is subtly wrong is that it ignores a critical distinction, which is that, as a "protected class", gays are privileged under the law. This means that you are especially vulnerable to being sued for violating their rights. As Mencius Moldbug put it in the context of McCarthyism and the anti-Communist Red Scare [1]:

"[M]ost of what we call 'McCarthyism' was a matter of 'social consequences.' Besides, the social consequences work for one and only one reason: there's an iron fist in the velvet glove. Being sued for disrespecting a privileged class—excuse me, a protected class—is not in any way a social consequence, but rather a political one."

To appreciate the asymmetry, imagine a counterfactual reality in which Eich donated against of Prop. 8 instead of for it. In this context, suppose he made a comment in the workplace about his support for gay marriage. Suppose further that some Mozilla employees, who happened to vigorously oppose gay marriage, sued on the grounds of a "hostile working environment". Such a lawsuit would have no chance of success. In contrast, in the real reality we actually live in, Eich will now have to monitor his workplace speech very carefully—one wrong word about gay marriage could be all it takes to precipitate a lawsuit against him and the Mozilla Foundation. It would be unwise to underestimate the chances of such a suit's success.

In the counterfactual universe, a pro–gay marriage Eich might still face a boycott or protests, but they would be incomparably weaker because non-gays are not a protected class. Whereas in real reality, the "social consequences" of a boycott are supported by the full power of the US Federal Government. For obvious reasons, such boycotts have a habit of succeeding.

[1]: [Technology, communism, and the Brown Scare](http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technol...)

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#138
post #45

I'm trying to keep this in perspective with all the massively positive things that Mozilla has done over the years. I've used Firefox all the time, proclaimed the value of Mozilla to others, and even donated to Mozilla. Regardless, I'm having a hard time getting past this. I started up Firefox this morning, and almost immediately, I felt dirty. I closed it and switched over to Chromium. I can't buy the argument that…

Will you boycott every company that has an employee that has belief that isn't yours? Isn't that the definition of intolerance? One of those things, I guess, can't tolerate the intolerant =).

No, that's not what I argued. I agree with the notion that there's room for honest political disagreements within a community. However, I consider equal treatment of LGBT people to be a human right, and human rights don't fall under the spectrum of honest political disagreements.

Honest political disagreement are about the hows of accomplishing the humanity's goals of equal liberty and justice for all. Anti-marriage-equality advocates are about the outcome of said equal liberty and justice; that is, preventing it for LGBT people and treating them as second-class citizens.

> One of those things, I guess, can't tolerate the intolerant =).

That's not accurate. I can tolerate the intolerant. I'm not asking for their civil liberties to be taken away like Prop 8 attempted to take away from LGBT people.

All I'm stating that I'm not going to be as supportive and praise of Mozilla and Firefox as I used to be. Don't get me wrong, Mozilla is still a great organization made up of wonderful people, and the whole organization shouldn't be ruined by the actions of one member. But that this one person now is the head of the organization tarnished it significantly.

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gay marriage isn't a 'basic human right'. It's subscribing to a governmental institution.

This isn't about gay marriage, per se. It's about carving out exceptions to the general writ of legal equality for all guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

Then where's my native (do you still call them 'indians' in the US?) status card, my veteran benefits, and my handicapped parking permit? While we're at it why can't I get maternity leave or diplomatic immunity?

I'm actually married (religious ceremony) but not officially 'married' (according to the government) and I don't care nor does it really matter where I live (common-law spouses get benefits anyway). And I'm not even against gay marriage, I just don't 'get' why it's a big deal...

Anyhow, I'm sure there's plenty of other exceptions when it comes to equality... Old people, minorities, pregnant women all get preferential treatment in a variety of circumstances, and it's not a bad thing...

Re: Gay Firefox developers boycott Mozilla to protest CEO hire

#140

Oh cuil, it's apparently time for the entitled mob to direct its groupthink towards tearing down one of the rare worthwhile software companies.

Sorry, can you explain exactly where the bar is set to determine how 'worthwhile' a software company has to be before we turn a blind eye to their having a homophobic CEO?

I am for gay marraige. Eich is against it. These facts don't necessarily make me a homophile or Eich a homophobe. We have differing views on what marraige means.
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