Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist • Hacker News Board

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#131

Post by NextUserName » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 12:27 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #126

NextUserName wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every one of you who takes the meds route, there are others who change careers, jobs, or learn exercises and methods to stay on task better. This has been the traditional way to deal with these problems. I am not saying that I would not do any different if I were in your shoes, but changing your career to match your brain sure sounds more natural, and that is usually a good thing. It is sad how science and techno…

A couple hundred years ago I would have been essentially blind because a lack of these "unnatural" glasses. There's a good chance I'd be dead because of "unnatural" vaccines and antibiotics. No, technology hasn't made normal people have a medical condition. We already had a medical condition. Science and technology allows us to understand that, and to improve our lives beyond just "give up and get another job".

You have to draw a line somewhere don't you? otherwise we've eventually got Gattica.

Does wearing glasses modify the logical center of your brain like Ritalin? How about we start genetically engineering humans to be smarter, stronger, etc. How about we give all short kids hormones so they can be as tall as the rest of their classmates, it's only fair after all. Vaccines do something that nature also does, it is just in a more controlled way, antibiotics are used to save lives so they have a different consideration, again though the thing that I want to underline is that altering the brain's chemistry and behavior is bad.

Some things like modern agriculture seem like good ideas at some level. Tons of food can be achieved cheaply, but it has side effects of pollution and toxins/antibiotics ending up in our bodies, the cycle of life and our ecosystem is damaged. The same with factories. They can produce amazing amounts of goods, but they can also destroy the earth.

Systematically altering thoughts and minds because they don't fit into office jobs well is something that will end up with consequences (it already is starting too).

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#132

Post by NextUserName » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 1:03 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #124

NextUserName wrote: post #116

Modern civilization has certainly invented ADHD. It used to be that if you had ADHD, you probably weren't a banker, lawyer or politician. You certainly would not work in a cubicle and rot away all day. You also lived 15 years longer than your sedentary counterpart. You would do a more physical job. Physical work often creates the necessary stimulation that so many of these ADHD cases need. The argument that it just i…

Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for. Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pr…

>Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for.

You simply had the wrong type of physical jobs. There are physical jobs that are mentally challenging as well.

>We don't "pump them full of steroids" because unlike the (admittedly imperfect) ADHD treatments we have now, muscle-building steroids have negative side effects that greatly outweigh their benefits.

OK then change steroids to HGH.

>We do give them the best medical care possible. If an aspiring athlete breaks a leg or has plantar fasciitis, we treat those things. We don't just say, "guess you weren't meant to be an athlete."

Apples to oranges. Bones heal naturally. ADHD does not go away by "resting".

>Yeah, and if you had bad eyesight, you were probably steered away from those professions as well.

And if you were left-handed people assumed you were under demonic influence or something.

And if you were dyslexic people assumed you were stupid.

I'm glad people like me are winning against people like you.

I see you are missing the point. How about this. In 20 years, 90% of people working in office jobs are taking ADHD medication Only 5% of them really have ADHD, but the rest have learned that they can concentrate longer and be more productive by using it. Now those with ADHD are no better off (on a relative scale) than those before these medications were invented. They often cannot compete with their non ADHD counterparts and lose their jobs (just like before ADHD meds came around). As a side effect, now billions of people on earth are taking a drug everyday that alters various things in their mind. They no longer think naturally and with the rational that they were born with. You think that this is good? This is where we are heading.

Like I said in another post, in those I know who changed careers VS those who take drugs every day, the ones who changed careers are far happier and have better quality of life mentally and physically.

Don't you want to be happier? Blame yourself and this system which has nudged you out of your natural path.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#133

Post by NextUserName » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 1:14 AM UTC

darkarmani wrote: post #130

NextUserName wrote: post #116

Modern civilization has certainly invented ADHD. It used to be that if you had ADHD, you probably weren't a banker, lawyer or politician. You certainly would not work in a cubicle and rot away all day. You also lived 15 years longer than your sedentary counterpart. You would do a more physical job. Physical work often creates the necessary stimulation that so many of these ADHD cases need. The argument that it just i…

> The argument that it just isn't fair that someone's mind is more suited for a desk job than someone else, so we should put them on equal footing by administering drugs the rest of their lives is a flawed and slippery slope mentality. Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pro football? "Lets make things fair and pump this kid full of roids so he can be…

The slippery slope is obvious. More and more people today are put on drugs to deal with problems that used to be dealt with naturally and without side effect. Secondly, more and more average people who don't really need these medications still get on them because they enhance their concentration and productivity. They give them abilities (an edge) that only a few in the general populace naturally have. Why is this bad? because these are mind altering drugs that people will take every day forever.

This type of behavior modification has always had (and always will) consequences.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#134

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 2:59 AM UTC

NextUserName wrote: post #132

JohnBooty wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for. Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pr…

> Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for. You simply had the wrong type of physical jobs. There are physical jobs that are mentally challenging…

I think you're hinging a lot on this incredibly faulty belief:

  [Users of ADHD medication] no longer think naturally and 
  with the rational that they were born with. You think that 
  this is good?

So which chapter of Scientology do you belong to?

Stimulants are, of course, psychoactive substances and nobody denies that, but you're blowing this so far out of proportion that you have zero credibility.

I bet you have lovely opinions about antidepressants and antianxiety medication as well. I suppose those people, too, should also just find lines of work that value depressed and/or anxious people just like Xenu intended.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#135

Post by darkarmani » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 3:23 AM UTC

NextUserName wrote: post #133

darkarmani wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument that it just isn't fair that someone's mind is more suited for a desk job than someone else, so we should put them on equal footing by administering drugs the rest of their lives is a flawed and slippery slope mentality. Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pro football? "Lets make things fair and pump this kid full of roids so he can be…

The slippery slope is obvious. More and more people today are put on drugs to deal with problems that used to be dealt with naturally and without side effect. Secondly, more and more average people who don't really need these medications still get on them because they enhance their concentration and productivity. They give them abilities (an edge) that only a few in the general populace naturally have. Why is this ba…

> More and more people today are put on drugs to deal with problems that used to be dealt with naturally and without side effect.

You mean like HIV/AIDs, cancer, autism, epilepsy? Of course there aren't side effects if you aren't treating.

> more and more average people who don't really need these medications still get on them because they enhance their concentration and productivity

You are begging the question. First you are assuming their is some growth to the number of people being treated that don't require treatment. Secondly, you assuming that they are bad because they are "mind altering."

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#136

Post by Houshalter » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 4:06 AM UTC

NextUserName wrote: post #131

Houshalter wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple hundred years ago I would have been essentially blind because a lack of these "unnatural" glasses. There's a good chance I'd be dead because of "unnatural" vaccines and antibiotics. No, technology hasn't made normal people have a medical condition. We already had a medical condition. Science and technology allows us to understand that, and to improve our lives beyond just "give up and get another job".

You have to draw a line somewhere don't you? otherwise we've eventually got Gattica. Does wearing glasses modify the logical center of your brain like Ritalin? How about we start genetically engineering humans to be smarter, stronger, etc. How about we give all short kids hormones so they can be as tall as the rest of their classmates, it's only fair after all. Vaccines do something that nature also does, it is just…

One, who the hell cares? Just because something is natural doesn't make it good. If you want natural, go live in a cave and risk dying whenever you get a cut or a tooth infection. There's nothing wrong with improving things.

Two, again, it's a real condition that seriously affects quality of life. Your argument is about as reasonable as telling crippled people they shouldn't have wheel chairs, or depressed people they shouldn't take anti-depressants, or otherwise blind people have glasses, etc. It's absurd and offensive.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#137

Post by NextUserName » Fri, Mar 21, 2014, 6:11 PM UTC

darkarmani wrote: post #135

NextUserName wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The slippery slope is obvious. More and more people today are put on drugs to deal with problems that used to be dealt with naturally and without side effect. Secondly, more and more average people who don't really need these medications still get on them because they enhance their concentration and productivity. They give them abilities (an edge) that only a few in the general populace naturally have. Why is this ba…

> More and more people today are put on drugs to deal with problems that used to be dealt with naturally and without side effect. You mean like HIV/AIDs, cancer, autism, epilepsy? Of course there aren't side effects if you aren't treating. > more and more average people who don't really need these medications still get on them because they enhance their concentration and productivity You are begging the question. Fir…

>You mean like HIV/AIDs, cancer, autism, epilepsy? Of course there aren't side effects if you aren't treating.

I can see that you cannot even reason logically and understand simple comparisons. No comparison can be made between trying to naturally cure HIV/AIDS and someone with a short attention span while sitting at a desk all day switching to a more suitable job.

>You are begging the question. First you are assuming their is some growth to the number of people being treated that don't require treatment. Secondly, you assuming that they are bad because they are "mind altering."

This is not my assumption. It is a proven fact. The criteria for diagnosed ADHD has changed so dramatically over the last 20 years, a person who is suffering from stress or sleep deprivation (with side effects of a lower attention span and concentration abilities) is commonly diagnosed with ADHD and put on meds.

This conversation is done. I refuse to try and reason with an illogical and senseless person.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#138

Post by NextUserName » Fri, Mar 21, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #134

NextUserName wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for. You simply had the wrong type of physical jobs. There are physical jobs that are mentally challenging…

I think you're hinging a lot on this incredibly faulty belief: [Users of ADHD medication] no longer think naturally and with the rational that they were born with. You think that this is good? So which chapter of Scientology do you belong to? Stimulants are, of course, psychoactive substances and nobody denies that, but you're blowing this so far out of proportion that you have zero credibility. I bet you have lovely…

>I think you're hinging a lot on this incredibly faulty belief:

First of all, this is not MY belief alone. It is listed among the side effects on the side of the box. Further studies have pretty much conclusively agreed that these drugs do affect reason and rational.

>I bet you have lovely opinions about antidepressants and antianxiety medication as well. I suppose those people, too, should also just find lines of work that value depressed and/or anxious people just like Xenu intended.

These are proven to be even worse of course. The sad thing is that many people who are on them do not need to be. This is like taking morphine when you have a broken leg and continuing to walk on it so it cannot heal, vs setting the bone and casting/resting it.

Also funny you should mention depressed people changing lines of work. A high percentage (over 10%) of people put on antidepressants have been found to have very low levels of vitamin D (something they never would have had if working outside). Many of them were also overweight and very out of shape. Many others were also later diagnosed with S.A.D. Something that people working outside rarely experience.

Antidepressants and ADHD drugs are often given as a quick fix. There are often alternatives that can fix the actual problem rather than mask the symptoms. That is all I am saying. You don't seem to be able to accept this fact, so out conversation must end here.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#139

Post by NextUserName » Fri, Mar 21, 2014, 6:39 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #120

NextUserName wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every one of you who takes the meds route, there are others who change careers, jobs, or learn exercises and methods to stay on task better. This has been the traditional way to deal with these problems. I am not saying that I would not do any different if I were in your shoes, but changing your career to match your brain sure sounds more natural, and that is usually a good thing. It is sad how science and techno…

Lets just be really clear about one thing, focus related drugs have been pretty common in academia and highly intellectual professions for decades now. Similarly, drugs like Ritalin are legal in Israel and can be had by anyone if they just get a script from a doc (no need for a diagnosis). In the long run I think we as a society need to grow up about this stuff, as use of some of these meds in moderation is fine eith…

>Phillip K Dick was a anphetamine abuser (which no one advocates), but incredible writer. I would never dare suggest someone limit their potential if there are options they can reasonably try.

This is very telling and I believe that it defines pretty clearly the rift between our convictions on this.

In the near future, we will have the ability to augment our brains via drugs and implants to make us many more times smarter and more productive. We are starting down this path already. Where does our humanity end up after all of this. There will certainly be a tradeoff.

I believe the present and future of humanity is better off letting us reason with out own natural brains vs enhanced/inhibited (enhanced/inhibited always go together because there is always a tradeoff, even if eventually the only side effect is an imbalance of abilities). I am not saying that I never condone the use of ADHD drugs and Antidepressants, but when they are handed out like candy - I see that as being a problem. Clearly you do not, but that is the difference between us.