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Are Malls Over?

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Re: Are Malls Over?

#131

Post by fudged71 »

blahedo wrote: post #62

I'd like to mention three malls that don't purely fit the "greybox" model and may point to a likely future for malls in general. - West Edmonton Mall (Edmonton, AB). In one sense, it is the mother of all greybox malls, surrounded by an asphalt moat. But: it's accessible via local transit, and it's very much in the model of an artificial downtown: it contains hotels, apartments, a hockey rink, an aquarium, and a varie…

I grew up in Calgary. In my opinion, West Edmonton Mall has been dying over the years. There are several corners of the mall that feel really gross to be in. They got rid of the submarines that I enjoyed as a kid. And it no longer feels new.

I don't know if the recent renovations have changed anything, but it would be great to hear someone from Edmonton chime in.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#132

Post by ccurtsinger »

blahedo wrote: post #62

I'd like to mention three malls that don't purely fit the "greybox" model and may point to a likely future for malls in general. - West Edmonton Mall (Edmonton, AB). In one sense, it is the mother of all greybox malls, surrounded by an asphalt moat. But: it's accessible via local transit, and it's very much in the model of an artificial downtown: it contains hotels, apartments, a hockey rink, an aquarium, and a varie…

The Mall of America, from the same developers as the West Edmonton Mall, is another good exception. The mall is massive, but the interior spaces feel like the outdoors. This is partly because of the live plants and bright sunlight filling the theme park in the middle, and partly because of the fresh air from their fascinating climate control system. It's also well-connected to public transit. Outdoor malls don't do as well in the winter months in Minnesota, but MOA appears to be doing well enough since they have a massive expansion underway.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#133

Post by ulfw »

maxerickson wrote: post #116
ulfw wrote: post #114

If US malls want to survive they need to start copying international malls, which are a lot more upscale, better looking (new or significantly renovated) and above all offer a much better mix between entertainment (movie theaters etc) and food (actual restaurants you would WANT to go to instead of chain/fast-food places) as well as stores. The problem with many malls is that they are copy cats of each other. Uninspir…

U.S. malls do tend to have movie theaters. But they aren't going to pay high rent to get into a mall if there is open commercial land anywhere nearby. It's a similar thing with decent restaurants, they don't necessarily gain much from the association. I saw a thing in a local paper that the bankrupt mall should 'bring in' good stores. Of course this is backwards, the stores mentioned in the comment have no interest i…

Very true actually. It's just sad that malls had to get all the way to the state of being run-down. What I suggested should have been down 10 or even more years ago. Right now I'd agree with you that many malls have to work hard to find tenants who'd be unwilling to be associated with a mall.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#134

Post by vidarh »

yasth wrote: post #28
untog wrote: post #23

NYTimes had an article a few days ago[1] about Sbarro's bankruptcy that touched on this topic - basically, Sbarro bet big on shopping mall food courts, and that bet has not paid off. But the more interesting part is at the end - as shopping malls become less desirable, rents will go down. This could lead to a radical reinvention of what a mall looks and feels like. So malls as we know them might be dead, but "the mal…

Rents may well go down, and many malls may live a second life as anything from indoor paintball arena ( http://www.specialopspaintball.com/forum/index.php?showtopic... ), megachurch ( http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/report-megachurch-in-... ) to a secure datacenter ( http://www.lifelinedatacenters.com/data-center/indianapolis%... ) , but will anyone build new malls? I mean carriage houses have been renovated i…

Lots of places in the world malls are still being built at a rapid pace. London, for example, is seeing an ongoing stream of enlargment, redevelopment and new mall developments. For an example local to me, the Australian developer/mall operator Westfields has formed a joint venture with another developer to combine two local malls and redevelop them into one huge mall, which make Westfields 3rd huge mall in London:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/croydon-westfield-set-...

Maybe large parts of the US just has too many/too large ones, given how many of them were developed pre-online shopping. And a problem with malls is of course that population shifts are far harder to accommodate when such a large area is operated as one unit. If the mall owner does not actively manage changes due to changes in the surrounding area, it can easily become obsolete as a whole.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#135

Post by icelancer »

bane wrote: post #101
earino wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described Nashville, TN perfectly. I don't know where you are describing, but you just gave a fantastic breakdown of the fall of the Hickory Hollow Mall and the rise and plateauing of either Green Hills or Cool Springs. It was a little uncanny. If it isn't Nashville, TN then this is a spectacular repeating pattern and now I hope I can find some good data sets regarding mall occupancy somewhere that I can vis…

Nope, not Nashville. About 750 miles East of there in the D.C. area.

Wow. I thought for sure you were talking about Cleveland, OH. Just goes to show you it's happening almost identically everywhere.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#136

Post by astrodust »

z92 wrote: post #69

Reminds me of this op-ed from 1995 "...how come my local mall does more business in an afternoon than the entire Internet handles in a month?" http://www.newsweek.com/clifford-stoll-why-web-wont-be-nirva...

Some people, even technically inclined writers, fail to understand exponential growth.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#137

Post by bane »

learc83 wrote: post #126
bane wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the one.

The funny thing is, I've never lived near there, and I've only been there once on the way to DC, but your description was spot on. As soon as I read "...leaving the mall a grotesque enlarged gangrenous tumor hanging off of the attached Walmart.", I knew it had to be that mall.

I hadn't been there in years, and went back recently and really found it depressing.

The city, Manassas, has a bigger population than ever, but can't sustain the mall. The mall is in a death spiral. Nobody goes there because it's a dump with no place to shop, and they can't get businesses there because nobody goes there and it's a dump. People from Manassas don't even go there, they just go to other nearby malls for their mall-style shopping when they need something.

At this point, the city would be better served to tear the mall down and replace it with a large outdoor style town center. Cost of living in Manassas is relatively cheap compared to other places in NoVA and with enough mixed-use zoning there, could turn it into an attractive place.

I didn't really dig into the city too much, but over the last 20-ish years, the entire city has death spiraled. Grocery stores closed and were reopened as barely maintained "global marts" that made me want to take a bath after I left, franchise restaurants have closed up. etc.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#139

Post by astrodust »

slashmasterx wrote: post #112

The thing I found most surprising about this article >Internet sales reached six per cent of total retail spending in the fourth quarter of 2013 I thought that would be a bit higher.

Remember that the fashion industry has revenue that absolutely dwarfs the tech industry. It's so far beyond that it's not even funny. People can't go naked, they need clothes, and most of the time they prefer to try them on, see how they look and fit, then purchase in person.

Then there's food which is even larger. The online ordering of groceries is a drop in the bucket. You want fresh food, you're going to have to go and hand pick it.

Not surprisingly Wal-Mart has a foot in both camps.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#140

Post by dragonwriter »

colkassad wrote: post #70
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were they like?

Pre-internet, if you wanted to peruse music, toys, books, movies, and/or video games and software, you essentially had to go to a mall. Or at least you wanted to because it was so convenient to access one or more of these sources of entertainment. Now it's pretty much only a good source for clothes.

> Pre-internet, if you wanted to peruse music, toys, books, movies, and/or video games and software, you essentially had to go to a mall. Or at least you wanted to because it was so convenient to access one or more of these sources of entertainment.

Well, actually, as I recall, malls were typically where you went for stores for those things that tended to be overpriced and had limited selection, but were conveniently located together along with restaurants and places for the kids to be entertained (like arcades and sometimes play areas, carousels, etc.)

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