Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 144 posts

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#131

Post by skj »

mindslight wrote: post #122
mpyne wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is HN, but maybe you should try to comprehend the message as it was obviously meant instead of choosing a possible interpretation that is illogical and then beating up on the interpretation you chose.

I got the original message (or at least the beginnings of one). OP started off on the narrow path of understanding with balancing viewpoints, but then fell off by representing Rand as unconditional support for corporate domination, and went on to imply that her writings inspired these before-her-time titans to boot. So I pointed out the absurdity by expanding on it. Besides what's really more interesting, analyzing c…

There was no implication that the Randian titans were inspired by Rand. Only the implication that they lived by her ideals.

That, of course, can happen before she actually articulates them.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#132

Post by walshemj »

gergles wrote: post #130
smsm42 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, HR has the bar that you can be disbarred from? Thanks for expanding my horizons, I had no idea.

The CIPD is in the UK. The closest thing in the US is SHRM, which has the PHR/SPHR designations -- which are indeed often a requirement for senior HR positions (though I don't know that those designations have ever actually been revoked.)

should be if HR is to live up to it's pretensions about being a "profession".

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#133

Post by collyw »

geebee wrote: post #86
smsm42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there indeed a shortage of app developers because of the low wages? I was always thinking of software as a segment where entry barriers are relatively low - compared to, say, medicine - and pay is exceptionally good. Of course, everybody wants to be paid better, but it doesn't look like software engineers are suffering especially badly from low pay.

People (including me) often say that barriers to entry are low, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are no legal barriers to entry. But barriers to being a "mathematician" are also low. But would you say that the barriers to doing meaningful mathematical work are low? It's out of reach of most of the population. Anyone can hang out a shingle as a software developer, but are the barriers to gettin…

The thing is, anyone who has read, say the Django tutorial can say "I have done Django developemnt", whereas that is a world of difference from having a solid understanding of database design and deep understanding of all parts of the framework and able to set up such an app on various different servers.

Interviews in IT seem to be a mess, though looking at what I have been asked in the past few years. Pointless trivial pursuit sytle Python questions and the likes.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#134

Post by acdha »

geebee wrote: post #65

I'm really glad to see that this issue is getting more coverage in the mainstream press. There was an article/editorial a while back (discussed on HN) from the guardian, but unfortunately, the writer used the incident (the collusion) to go on a rant about how valley leaders are hypocritical libertarians. That (reasonably enough) lead to a long debate about whether the leaders are libertarians even if they are mainly…

The full linked data for that occupation list really makes your point clear:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41860.htm

It's certainly not the case that IT people are hurting terribly but it makes it hard to argue that there is in fact a significant shortage or that we need programs to attract more CS majors rather than, say, simply paying at least as much as some of the other things students choose to major in.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#135

Post by collyw »

pyrrhotech wrote: post #113

Engineers are so highly underpaid for the value they contribute to these companies. What's the average salary, $140k? It should be $300k, half a million total comp conservatively. Even at that amount, employers would still be getting a 50-75% margin on you. It's insane how much we are ripped off. Good eningeers can literally make or save companies 10s of millions a year, but are never compensated for it.

I am sure it depends on the engineer. Plenty of crap ones there that's work needs rewritten once they have left.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#136

Post by mindslight »

skj wrote: post #131
mindslight wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got the original message (or at least the beginnings of one). OP started off on the narrow path of understanding with balancing viewpoints, but then fell off by representing Rand as unconditional support for corporate domination, and went on to imply that her writings inspired these before-her-time titans to boot. So I pointed out the absurdity by expanding on it. Besides what's really more interesting, analyzing c…

There was no implication that the Randian titans were inspired by Rand. Only the implication that they lived by her ideals. That, of course, can happen before she actually articulates them.

Only if you're talking about a narrow caricature of her ideas, and ignoring the context she was writing from - socially-based totalitarianism. Her focus of strong individualism would have manifested quite differently if she had been writing during that period of hierarchical totalitarianism.

There are many people who use what she said to justify their being assholes, but the same applies to any philosophy when it's taken for strict prescriptions.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#137

Post by yetanotherphd »

walshemj wrote: post #70
hanswesterbeek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The tech-industry is horribly naive. It operates based on the idea that the general public perceives them as those friendly shy nerdy guys from school. Wake up, guys. People have had tech giants invade their life way too much and they've all seen in The Social Network what kind of person a poster boy like Mark Zuckerberg really is.

And when they need a scapegoat for the rescission they look around and think ok we bullied them in school with no come back and they are crap a lobbying as a group so lets go to town on techies. Its the "Anti globalization of fools" want to rile up your nice political machine just go "techie techie techie" any one get the reference to the infamous political observation I am making here.

>we bullied them in school with no come back and they are crap a lobbying as a group so lets go to town on techies.

This motivation is not sufficiently acknowledged on HN. I think people are afraid to face up to this fact. A lot of what feminists say about rape culture is true, and similar observations apply to nerds. Our culture trivializes physical and sexual (wedgies) assault on nerds. It is only natural that this same culture put on a front of false outrage when some nerds earn a good living.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#138

Post by tn13 »

sergiosgc wrote: post #67
tn13 wrote: post #23

This is really pathetic. I can understand companies being ruthless in maximizing their profits but this sort of move is seriously counter productive. If the wages are not competitive it also means less incentive for bright youngsters to get into these professions. If this kind of agreements become more common, I think that will be like we killing our future.

Companies do not, usually, plan decades ahead. They manage the next quarter and plan the next three years. Youngsters entering or not a professional area is something that takes 20 years to produce a measurable effect. Government, is the one that should do the multi decade planning.

"I am from government and I am here to help" you can only shudder at those words irrespective of the context.

I will be surprised to see if Google or its investors do not care about their long term future. I will be less surprised to see someone like Obama planning only for re-elections and short term popularity ratings.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#139

Post by smsm42 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #117
smsm42 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to work in a company that is worth $400B. Of course, this company may pay the best, far over what other companies do - but then your complaints about your wage being artificially suppressed sound a lot like pure greed.

The problem isn't when one company pays better than everybody else. The problem is when the top ten different companies, all of which you would like to work for and all of which pay the best, agree with eachother that none of them will pay you what you are worth. Now, I think you already understand that, and your counter was "well then someone will hop in and pay you what you are worth and they will suffer for collud…

It doesn't matter if it's one company or 10 companies out of 1000. The claim is most companies - overwhelming majority, as it appears - can't pay you this money. Still you think you're worth more than any other company except 10 can afford to pay, and despite being paid obviously in the highest in the industry, you think you're worth much more. That's OK, overwhelming majority of people think they are way above average in everything they do. But you don't stop there - you think that any effort for the companies to pay you less than your imagined self-worth is illegal, despite the fact that you voluntarily agreed to be paid as much and nobody else but these tiny minority of companies would even consider to pay you this much - you still think they owe you more and need to be coerced to pay you more. I'm sorry, I don't see how this can elicit any sympathy from me.

>>> But clearly that hasn't happened.

How you know that? The salaries in the industry are one of the highest of any, and compared to the effort needed to enter the industry (compare to, say, lawyers or doctors and how much you have to spend in time and money to become one) is even higher, probably one of the best among all (legal) industries, especially if you take out salaries that are achieved by political gamesmanship and not by market forces.

>>> Seriously, the fact that the word "collude" can even be used here is a bad sign. If you pay attention to business history, that word is never good.

If you argue on the grounds "I used this word, and this word sounds bad, ergo the thing I've named with this word is bad by the fact of the word sounding bad" - you lost the argument. Unless you think words are magic and the mere fact of calling it "collusion" automatically and magically taints it.

Re: Engineers Allege Hiring Collusion in Silicon Valley

#140

Post by smsm42 »

pron wrote: post #114
smsm42 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I think that regulation sometimes swings this way, but it is sometimes gradually, slowly, fixed The first sometimes is more like "almost always" and the second one is more like "almost never". Government regulation is a ratchet - easy to move one way, almost impossible to move the opposite way. >>> Lastly, where does the money come from? That, as I said, the question that is never asked. Because everybody feels e…

Do you think that without regulation there will be less barriers for the small players? Because I can assure you that the Robber Barons made sure there were no small players left. They either bought them out or forcefully drove them out of business. As much as regulation places a burden on the small guys, if you let the big guys alone at it, they will make it much harder. This isn't theoretical; that's how it actuall…

Russia in the past 20 years is an example of a libertarian no-regulation state? Are you kidding me? Russia is a corruptocrat authoritarian state with no independent courts, virtually no independent media outside of internet, no rule of law or personal protection of property and person, official state censorship, and is corrupt to the core, with rampant extortion and bribery on every level of the government. And yes, plenty of invasive regulation that is used exactly to extort these bribes. Latest state initiative, recently introduced into Duma, is mandatory registration with the state of every internet site and mandatory preservation of users' activity logs by every site operator: http://lenta.ru/news/2014/02/28/data/

I'm sorry, did you just mention Russia as an example of state with no regulation? Ignorant, joking or trolling?

Post reply on HN