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Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

nature.com

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Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#131

Post by lotharbot »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #119
adamnemecek wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We weren't talking about letting but about forcing.

Forcing children to wear clothes is normal, and the style shouldn't matter as long as they are fitting and such. I don't think you can really 'force' a child to play, so I discount the part about playing with dolls being potentially 'abusive'.

> "the style shouldn't matter"

While I certainly advocate that parents have the right to dress their kids in varied styles, I would highly advise against certain styles. "It doesn't matter" perhaps legally, but it does matter socially. (I work in an inner city school; I'm aware of at least two serious suicide comments by kids whose ages are in the single digits, at least partly due to social status.)

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#132

Post by ebfe »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #116
cwaniak wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there aren't, but a lot of people are firmly convinced that there are. Any evidence of that?

Here's an experiment you can try yourself if you're male: attempt to enter a typical* church or school while wearing a dress and makeup. Compare to the reactions you get entering the same establishment wearing "normal" clothes. *I'm sure you can cherry-pick unusually liberal examples of either, but you know what I'm talking about.

There's a distinct difference between disapproving of men who dress as women and believing that they shouldn't be allowed to do so.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#133

Post by egocodedinsol »

Worth noting is that the median age was 58, and the minimum age was 16. Apparently there were no differences pre-post menopause, but an interesting question is whether gene expression, splicing, and regulatory networks are initiated via external factors in early youth, or in development via more automatic mechanisms.

There might be reasons this isn't the case, but it is apparently true that maternal behavior influences which parent you express genes from in mice (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20616232). I'm not sure (and not qualified to answer) whether similar mechanisms are at play here, but it does suggest that evolution has found a way to use early experience to modulate genetic expression. That might be the case here, too.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#134

Post by tw268 »

stcredzero wrote: post #7
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as it often does. It's fallacious to assume that there are no inborn differences between men and women. It's equally fallacious to insist (as many do and will, probably citing this study) that there are vast and uncrossable gulfs between men and women, and that anyone who crosses those gulfs anyway must be some sort of deviant. Humans are complex, the product of both nature and…

We'll said! Also, we should be careful not to impose new restrictive social conditioning while eliminating the legacy conditioning. We will never entirely succeed, but we should try. (In the same way that one can't drive 100% straight but one should still make a good effort.) Once one's movement for justice has crossed the line, where there are apologetics for the abandonment of that effort, it is then creating injus…

Feminists believe that traditional female behavior is bad/useless and needs to be eliminated. We tell girls that to be worthwhile, they need to live lives like men. I never understood this. If people are happy and productive in traditional roles, why do they need to be eliminated?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#135

Post by PhasmaFelis »

ebfe wrote: post #132
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an experiment you can try yourself if you're male: attempt to enter a typical* church or school while wearing a dress and makeup. Compare to the reactions you get entering the same establishment wearing "normal" clothes. *I'm sure you can cherry-pick unusually liberal examples of either, but you know what I'm talking about.

There's a distinct difference between disapproving of men who dress as women and believing that they shouldn't be allowed to do so .

You think there's a lot of people who wouldn't want a cross-dresser in their church, but would allow their sons to wear dresses?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#136

Post by Fomite »

lambdaphage wrote: post #129
Fomite wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will come as a shock to those who are lactose intolerant, a mutation whose rise is in the vicinity of that time period. Protip: Evolution doesn't actually stop. Unless that was sarcastic. At which point, carry on :)

Adult lactose tolerance is the mutant phenotype-- intolerance is the norm.

Yeah, that. Mea culpa, but the idea remains the same.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#137

Post by Daniel_Newby »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #116
cwaniak wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there aren't, but a lot of people are firmly convinced that there are. Any evidence of that?

Here's an experiment you can try yourself if you're male: attempt to enter a typical* church or school while wearing a dress and makeup. Compare to the reactions you get entering the same establishment wearing "normal" clothes. *I'm sure you can cherry-pick unusually liberal examples of either, but you know what I'm talking about.

You would get the same reaction if you wore a fireman's coat or trousers made of aluminum foil.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#138

Post by PhasmaFelis »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #113
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a very vocal, very vitriolic subsection of the feminist movement It's also a tiny and unpopular subsection of the feminist movement. They're outnumbered a hundred to one by dudes who like to use them as strawmen. > only recently has the value of women in society dropped to that of men. I don't think that makes any sense. I mean, I literally don't understand what you're trying to say, and none of your asser…

It's also a tiny and unpopular subsection of the feminist movement. They're outnumbered a hundred to one by dudes who like to use them as strawmen. Hardly. Virtually every feminist scandal that attracts any attention whatsoever is about postmodern feminists and their oversensitive antics. The most popular feminist media, including Feministing and Jezebel, as well as articles on HuffPost and Slate, deal with postmoder…

Are you saying that the only feminists who count are the ones who cause scandals? I don't follow.

Is this the same viewpoint that says that all Muslims are terrorists because those are the ones that make the news? (Because "Local Mosque-Goers Are Pleasant Neighbors" doesn't sell newspapers.)

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#139

Post by magicalist »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #110
yaddayadda wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm disappointed that there's a "Men's Rights" movement. My mother raised me as a "feminist" and part of being a "feminist" was not discriminating against anyone because of their gender. For example, feminists support a boy who wants to play with dolls or a father wants to be a stay-at-home parent. I hate that the label itself is gendered and I wish it would be changed, but the principles of "feminism" include "Men's…

This ignores the fact that "feminism" is not a coherent movement. To be a feminist, one must advocate for women's rights at a bare minimum. Everything else is completely up to the individual, and the fact is there exist lots of schools with contradictory opinions on major social issues. Sex-positive/sex-negative, pro-traditional femininity (lipstick feminist)/anti-traditional femininity, pro-trans/transphobic (TERF),…

> Bottom line is, let's stop treating feminism like some omnibenevolent movement for equal rights, and as if radicals are just "fringes who don't make a difference". This is not true anymore. Feminism got derailed decades ago. Go read any large feminist publication like Feministing or Jezebel, and it embraces the toxicity of postmodern feminism.

This ignores the fact that "feminism" is not a coherent movement.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#140

Post by nerfhammer »

haberman wrote: post #130
drewcrawford wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you are correct that this particular study offers no real evidence in the nature/nurture debate, my understanding of neuroscience is that the existence of early differences in gender-based behavior are so well established in the discipline that to publish on that result is no longer interesting to neuroscientists. What remains at this point is to figure out a mechanism behind that result. So the line of inquiry…

I recently came across a link to this book, which I have not yet been able to read: http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Storm-Flaws-Science-Differences/... Published just a few years ago, it criticizes much of the research on sex differences, and from the reviews it makes a very exhaustive and compelling case. I'm curious if these are some of the studies it criticizes. (I don't have an opinion on this either way as I have no…

I would encourage you to read criticism of this and Cordelia Fine's books, such as

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/2042-6410-2-4.pdf

It has been argued that these authors have picked evidence they find disagreeable but fail to mention more solid studies.

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