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Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

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131–140 of 217 posts

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#131

For example, in eastern Wyoming, an analysis showed that it would cost half a million dollars to construct a water well into deep, but high-quality aquifer reserves. That, plus an untested assumption that all the deep layers below it could only contain poor-quality water, led regulators to allow a uranium mine to inject more than 200,000 gallons of toxic and radioactive waste every day into the underground reservoirs…

There we have the American disease, measure everything in monetary terms. At what monetary threshold is it ok to pollute underground reservoirs for future generations.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>comments like the one you replied to are exactly the kind we don't need. GP here. :) I'm 100% in favor of using technology "to offset much of what we've done, largely as a fault of technological advancement." After all, rainwater collection is technology! But desalination isn't that kind of technology — it's the destructive kind. My question was genuine. What advantage does plastic greenhouse desalination have over…

I am not entirely sure what you think these greenhouses are. Desalination does not intefere with rainwater harvesting. Rainwater harvesting is an entirely parallel enterprise, mostly involving accumulating very large bodies of freshwater. Currently desalination is very energy intensive and so tends to do harm due the pollution generated from producing that energy. These greenhouses desalinate water with a fraction of…

It need not even be from the sea. There are plenty of areas in the southwestern US where large aquifers of brine exist and these would be ideal.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurzweil would probably respond that nanobots and the singularity will fix everything.

I'm all for figuring out how to use the nanobots we have (aka biology). Advantage: they self-replicate royalty free, something the nanobot company would never allow.

> "Advantage: they self-replicate royalty free, something the nanobot company would never allow."

Such restrictions, or similar, might be a good idea in general. A gray-goo excursion would not be fun. Algae blooms cause enough damage as it is, and at least there are things that eat algae.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, on those time scales we could (more expensively) desalinate water using fusion power.

Or even more cheaply, reduce the number of people!

Desalination for personal use is cheap. Cheaper than killing, even.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#135
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year. Comparing Fukushima and Chernobyl is like comparing apples and turds. The debacle at Fukushima had nothing to do with the reactor design; it was due to the braindead siting of the backup diesel generators and their switchgear behind a seawall that got overrun by the tsunami. The reactor design itself was fine, and in fact has withstood loss…

Yeah but the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded. Imagine a coal plant that burns down 100,000 acres around it if the primary coal containment system (made up) loses power. Would anyone like that in their backyard? Or a hydro plant that if power isn't continuously supplied to, not only could the dam breach and flood downhill but also…

the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded

You're right that this is an additional risk factor, which would be eliminated in a design that required only passive cooling after shutdown (and newer designs have this feature).

But "retarded" is too strong. Just having the backup generators not come on for a short time period isn't enough; they have to be unavailable for days or weeks, as the Fukushima ones were. Also, the switchgear has to be such that portable generators can't be brought in and hooked up. I was extremely surprised to find that all of those design decisions were apparently made wrong in the Fukushima plant.

And even then, when put in proper perspective, the negative consequences of nuclear power are less severe, when averaged over all the kilowatt-hours of power produced by nuclear plants, than the negative consequences of other forms of energy. Coal causes far more mortality and morbidity per unit of energy generated, for example. It's not "retarded" to choose a power source that has less severe side effects all things considered.

Again, that's not to say that reactor designs should not be improved. But by any reasonable standard, nuclear power even with existing designs is safer, all things considered, than other major forms of energy. The only reason the public does not understand that is that "radiation" is a buzz word, whereas "respiratory failure due to coal dust", for example, is not. (And even "radiation" is not used fairly; coal ash has higher levels of radioactivity than many forms of nuclear waste. But the public isn't exhorted to protest about radiation from coal ash.)

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is called "not while I am alive" policy. When someone in office does something which won't impact anything when they are alive they can score points with special interests by helping get their project approved. Mostly though this is just another attack on Fracking.

I can't even count the times I've actually heard this argument from my right wing family members.

just goes to show that there are short-sighted idiots on both sides of the political spectrum

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pump seawater to Nevada and cover it in desalination greenhouses. http://www.seawatergreenhouse.com/

How is this better than local rainwater collection? Rainwater is desalination, you just cheated and let nature do the expensive part. Heck, lots of rainwater is already collected in gutters/roof drains, but is contaminated when it falls on the ground instead of into a tank. For irrigation all that is necessary is to soak the rainwater in as soon as possible to prevent evaporation and runoff, since potability is not a…

Amazing, I want to believe. This is such a big problem in my home town in northern Mexico/American southwest.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two challenges off the top: ⚫ Geothermal is available in limited areas. Few of those are proximate to salt water (though in Japan, Hawaii, and the Philippines this might be the case). I'm not aware that freshwater supplies are critically limited in any of those areas, however. ⚫ Geothermal itself tends to have substantial water requirements as a heat transfer / working fluid. Replenishing groundwater liberated throug…

What if we used geothermal sources just to boil water, not generate energy to desalinate it, and just free that water vapor to the atmosphere?

To what end?

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#139
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded. Imagine a coal plant that burns down 100,000 acres around it if the primary coal containment system (made up) loses power. Would anyone like that in their backyard? Or a hydro plant that if power isn't continuously supplied to, not only could the dam breach and flood downhill but also…

the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded You're right that this is an additional risk factor, which would be eliminated in a design that required only passive cooling after shutdown (and newer designs have this feature). But "retarded" is too strong. Just having the backup generators not come on for a short time period isn't enough; th…

I agree that average over the kilowatt-hours nuclear might be safer than coal. But the problem is that the risk is HIGHLY concentrated.

I can self-insure my computers because if one ever fails I have the cash to handle it. It's not a financial crisis. I don't self insure my car (for collision/comprehensive) because it's too big of an expense for me to absorb at any one time without severe hardship.

Nuclear reactors (as they stand today) are more like cars than computers. They tend to rob a few people of their whole lives and really eff up the ones that don't die. Coal plants have the "advantage" of robbing many people of a portion of their lives in a more subtle way.

LFTR reactors have physics on their side in that if containment is lost, so is criticality. Boiling water reactors, pressurized boiling water reactors, etc in my mind can't be made safe because they require power to stay safe, even if they're not generating power.

You've suggested that so long as the generators and whatnot arrive eventually, things will be fine. The problem is that you've made the assumption that somehow, some way the generators will arrive and the reactor can be made safe again over the course of some weeks or months. Nuclear reactors are one of the few pieces of infrastructure that can't simply be abandoned if something bad happens, or else the problem gets worse and worse and worse. This is a positive feedback cycle rather than a negative one. Positive feedback often "blows up" (a term we use in electrical engineering) or grows without bound. Nearly everything else in modern society functions with negative feedback and that kind of intrinsic safety is what most people want.

That's not to say that ALL nuclear reactors are by definition unsafe; just all the ones that are currently operating commercially because it's such a nightmare to permit new designs and the existing manufacturers have no interest in inviting competitors into their market.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#140

For example, in eastern Wyoming, an analysis showed that it would cost half a million dollars to construct a water well into deep, but high-quality aquifer reserves. That, plus an untested assumption that all the deep layers below it could only contain poor-quality water, led regulators to allow a uranium mine to inject more than 200,000 gallons of toxic and radioactive waste every day into the underground reservoirs…

Where can I learn more about that? Seems to me this qualifies as rape.
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