Live data from Hacker News

For the Love of Money

nytimes.com

131–140 of 291 posts

Re: For the Love of Money

#131

I've worked in finance. There are all types. Sure, there are asshole alpha traders who whine about $2 million bonuses. Those guys are pretty uncommon, they're disliked even in spite of their P&L, and no one helps them when they get unlucky. There are also people who don't think or live very differently from respectable professors-- except who have $12 million in their bank account instead of $12. There some pathologi…

He started his own site. From the bottom of the article -- "Sam Polk is a former hedge-fund trader and the founder of the nonprofit Groceryships."

http://groceryships.com/

Re: For the Love of Money

#132

I find the finance world quite fascinating! Some of those guys are super wealthy even though they have what looks like regular technical office jobs. With the same skills in a different industry, they would have had "normal" salaries.

You might enjoy the book "Liars Poker" by Michael Lewis that the author references. I find the finance world interesting also, and read the Financial Times as much as possible. Most fascinating obituaries youll ever read.

Re: For the Love of Money

#133
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's quite hard now. Lots of prop firms have closed down, regulation has increased significantly and is only getting worse. There's less easy money to be made. The majority of new traders are farmed from ivy league or top private engineering schools. I've seen some people join as devs and swap into trading. Ironically in these cases they were terrible devs, but increased their salary several times by becoming…

What is a typical path from dev->trader? Should one join a hedge fund as a programmer and then step up the ladder?

A friend of mine works in a trading company. He said all the traders want to become devs, because it is the only skill that they've seen up close that translates outside of the mad-house of trading, and they (the traders) all know eventually their number will be up.

Re: For the Love of Money

#134
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really disagree, but: You write as if the only options are "rich" and "poor". It's possible for the following two things both to be true: (1) Being poor sucks big, steaming donkey balls. (2) Being rich (as opposed to not-poor) is, for one reason or another, not a wise thing to aim for. As it happens, I think #2 isn't correct, because given the way the world is (a) being rich is the only way to be reasonably w…

I don't really disagree, but: You write as if the only options are "rich" and "poor". True... in the name of brevity, and perhaps out of haste, I did generalize a bit. And the two points I mean to emphasize are: 1. Being poor sucks (I think we can all agree on this) and 2. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to be rich, even "dirty, rotten, filthy stinking rich". In the case of (2), I posit that the desi…

I'm uncertain about the strong form of your #2, for the following reason.

Suppose you desire to be a billionaire (and stay one -- it's not that you want to get $1B so that you can give most of it away to deserving recipients, or use it to lobby governments to improve the world).

In particular, you would prefer to have $1B than to have $0.5B in your hands and $0.5B transferred to the world's poorest people.

The thing is, half a billion dollars can do a lot of good. A typical estimate is that you can save a life (i.e., something like a life's worth of quality-adjusted life-years) for a few thousand dollars, if you're happy for it to be a life in what used to be called the "third world" and if you take care to put the money where it can be used most effectively. Let's be conservative and suppose it's $10k/life.

So our hypothetical would-be billionaire would rather have $1B than have $0.5B and (5e8/1e4) = 50,000 Africans' lives saved.

I'm sure it's very nice to be a billionaire, but damn.

Something like this sort of prioritization of one's own welfare applies to pretty much all of us, of course -- would you rather have a car or save a life? would you rather have a slightly larger house or save ten lives? etc. And maybe this means we're all monsters. But, so far as I can tell, the difference in personal well-being between having a billion dollars and having half that is really small, and the difference that money could make to the lives of others is really large, and it does seem extra-specially monstrous to prefer that really small difference to saving tens of thousands of lives.

So I really do think there's something morally iffy about a very strong desire to be dirty, rotten, filthy stinking rich, in a way that there isn't about a desire to be merely rich. Wanting to have, say, $10M seems to me morally quite a different sort of thing from wanting to have $1B.

Of course if you want to have $1B and then give most of it away then, please, go for it. As long as you select the recipients of your largesse with some care. Likewise if you have other plans for your billion that involve having beneficial billion-dollar-sized impacts on the world. Fund important scientific research, bribe politicians to do things you think are valuable, whatever. What strikes me as problematic is wanting to have and keep all that money. You don't need it that badly. Really, you don't.

("You" above, of course, doesn't mean you personally.)

[EDITED to add one more remark (because the above wasn't long enough already). I'm assuming that "want" means something like "seriously intend, to the best of your ability" rather than just "find yourself with some sort of desire". People want all kinds of things and that doesn't have much moral significance until they start actually trying to get them.]

Re: For the Love of Money

#135
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is debatable if derivatives do more harm than good. Just look at the 2008 financial crisis... From Jaredsohn's link further in the thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)#Economic_f... . In the context of a 2010 examination of the ICE Trust, an industry self-regulatory body, Gary Gensler, the chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission which regulates most derivatives, was quoted saying…

Best case, what is the societal function of derivatives? As a relatively ignorant layperson, my guess is that derivatives allow productive businesses to hedge against uncontrollable risks. A business with less risks requires less capital buffer, which encourages & allows for more capital investment and profit-taking. In a nutshell, derivatives allow businesses to run and grow on less capital, by reducing the amount o…

I'd say in general they allow different types of risk to be stripped out from investments and passed on to people who specifically want to take them. That makes it easier for businesses (and individuals) to make plans. For instance a company could invest in a foreign market but hedge out the FX risk. They could even find a company in the foreign market who operates in their country and do a currency swap, meaning both parties get rid of unwanted risk.

Re: For the Love of Money

#136

This is the ugly underbelly of capitalism: that people aren't paid based upon their "importance". They are simply paid based upon their "value" to the market. Is it important for Clayton Kershaw to pitch for the Dodgers? No, but it is demanded. While I understand the sentiment of wanting to help the poorest of the poor, if it's true that money isn't the be-all, end-all then does it really matter that a trader makes m…

I would say that in most cases, people need to redefine importance in a way that is hard to accept. There is no need for scare quotes. The value is real, and when a person earns a certain amount, it's because the produce that much value (finance is kind of exceptional, in that there is a mix of true value and rent-seeking).

Now how can it be that nurse practitioners don't produce that much value? It is because the relevant quantity is the marginal value of an additional nurse practitioner, not the average value. And why is it fair to pay people according to their marginal value, and not their average value? That is because it incentives the most efficient behavior. An additional software engineer is worth more to society than an additional nurse. The fact that getting rid of all nurses would be worse than getting rid of all software engineers (assuming this was true) is irrelevant, because as people quit the nursing profession, wages will rise.

So the problem is not capitalism, but people's inability to accept that the implications of economics theory: first, that there is no ethical reason to reward people for the average value of a person in their profession, as opposed to the marginal value, and second, that frivolous things like Twitter can be as valuable as medical services (if people are willing to pay as much for either).

Re: For the Love of Money

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any stock trade where the buy vs. sell of a stock is under 3 months is not investment.. In under a day, even more so. It will not be felt by the company in question in any meaningful way, and is simply a newer form of gambling. By taxing any income made from trades where ownership is less than a month at 100% we can create a more honest trading environment, where sane investment becomes a norm. The fact is that would…

For a sensible and mature owner-manager partnership to flourish, investor holding periods need to be aligned with business planning horizons. Many significant projects need between 6 months and 5 years to come to maturity, and holding periods should reflect this pattern (according to the needs and nature of the business). I would argue that investors with a 3 month holding period are actually exerting a pretty corros…

A company isn't affected by who holds the stock. If I decide that I don't want to hold a stock in a company building a bridge across a river, and sell it to Jack, why does that change the company's desire to finish the bridge?

Re: For the Love of Money

#138

I've worked in finance. There are all types. Sure, there are asshole alpha traders who whine about $2 million bonuses. Those guys are pretty uncommon, they're disliked even in spite of their P&L, and no one helps them when they get unlucky. There are also people who don't think or live very differently from respectable professors-- except who have $12 million in their bank account instead of $12. There some pathologi…

>If he doesn't feel like working hard, he could probably use his VC connections as a cash cow...

Actually, if he doesn't feel like working hard, it sounds like he could retire on a comfortable 6-figure income for the rest of his life. Without interest, naively $6m will yield $100k a year for 60 years, which is more than enough to raise a large family in a nice neighborhood anywhere in the states - especially if the home and taxes are paid for.

Re: For the Love of Money

#139
post #80

"I recently got an email from a hedge-fund trader who said that though he was making millions every year, he felt trapped and empty, but couldn’t summon the courage to leave." I don't find it surprising. Many people feel that way about their job. It must take a lot of courage to leave such a lucrative career.

It's arguably better to feel empty about million dollar occupation vs. feeling empty about poorly paid occupation.

It's arguably better to feel empty about a poorly paid occupation than to feel empty about being unemployed.

It can go on for a while, but it doesn't mean people shouldn't address their problems.

Re: For the Love of Money

#140
post #16

I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Not so nurse practitioners. Is this statement (from the article) true? I'm under the impression that financial innovations throughout history have generally spurred capital investment. Innovations like fractional-reserve lending have made bankers&investors wealthy, but also spurred spending on…

Wallstreet has so much diverged from the real world that their financial innovations benefit world as much as invention of new casino game. On the other hand their inventions can hurt economy a lot because they invite to their casino people who apart from gambling use their money for developing economy. They lure them with high and fairly sure profits, but since investing in financial instruments is nothing more than gambling, probable high profits are offset by fairly rare but absolutely devastating crashes that damages players that haven't completely parted with real world economy yet. And that's really harmful.
Post reply on HN