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Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

nytimes.com

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Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#131

Post by crusso »

quaunaut wrote: post #120
crusso wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the power structure in DC has gotten way too comfortable for the people living there. Look at how unaffected the DC housing market was by the crisis over the last 6 years. The people in Washington aren't going to relinquish any of their power, though. An Article V convention of the states is about the only hope. http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/08/enacting_the_liberty_...

> Look at how unaffected the DC housing market was by the crisis over the last 6 years. You mean the same way most American cities went? http://timiacono.com/wp-content/uploads/10-11-30_cs-hpi.png

Sorry, I should have said "least affected".

Then when you consider that Washington moved UP vs all other cities in that graph, DC has done really well.

My point remains. Thanks for the data to refer to next time. :)

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#132

Post by fleitz »

grandalf wrote: post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#133

Post by fleitz »

ilovepolitics wrote: post #121
grandalf wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reads like some kind of passage from scripture, offering humble ignorance of reality and blindly placing trust in some entity to take care of your best interest. In the real world, it's clear that institutions become corrupt. Enron is one example. So is GroupOn. So is the NSA. I suppose you think we should not let our faith be shaken by the revelation that corruption has been found in some NSA programs.…

You haven't actually considered that the system is reasonable as it is. Which is the hubris that I'm talking about. I don't blindly trust institutions. But I also don't blindly distrust institutions when the system they perpetuate has merit. Life is quite good in America if you're in the middle class as compared to the standards of living in the past and around the world. I'm careful with my judgements as I understan…

You know the 'middle class' is people making 250K+ right?

In most countries the middle class are doing fine and live well.

It appears that high school and middle school have done their job of building trust in US institutions. Yes, it's completely alright that Mr. Obama went from constitutional scholar to repeatedly lying to the public about the scope of surveillance in the country.

Remember the debate he wanted to have about surveillance but just forgot about having for 5 years? How about the rinse wash repeat of Grenwald says you're doing X, we're not doing X, here's your documents proving your doing X.

Ends justify the means right? Middle class is doing well, ghetto don't matter! Just wave a flag and say you're free!

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#134

Post by downandout »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #122
downandout wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Usually we at least get to learn about candidates' fundamental views before electing them. A pro-life candidate, for example, isn't suddenly going to change that view after taking office. Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with th…

>Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with the fundamental beliefs that he told the country he held prior to his election. Bush promised a humble foreign policy with no nation building. He had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious prob…

This statement was made pre-9/11 - an event that changed many things. But even this wasn't a dramatic shift in his views. If anything, Bush's reaction to 9/11 reinforced the image he presented prior to his election. Whether you agreed with his views or not, few would argue that his reaction came entirely out of left field.

By contrast, this NSA/Obama issue proves that we simply don't know the person that is sitting in the White House right now. We only know that he lied through his teeth to get there.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#135

Post by ilovepolitics »

fleitz wrote: post #133
ilovepolitics wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't actually considered that the system is reasonable as it is. Which is the hubris that I'm talking about. I don't blindly trust institutions. But I also don't blindly distrust institutions when the system they perpetuate has merit. Life is quite good in America if you're in the middle class as compared to the standards of living in the past and around the world. I'm careful with my judgements as I understan…

You know the 'middle class' is people making 250K+ right? In most countries the middle class are doing fine and live well. It appears that high school and middle school have done their job of building trust in US institutions. Yes, it's completely alright that Mr. Obama went from constitutional scholar to repeatedly lying to the public about the scope of surveillance in the country. Remember the debate he wanted to h…

That's not the definition of middle class. It's usually put at households making more than $100k.

You're simply wrong.

And you haven't actually considered or responded to my argument. In fact this is exactly what I'm talking about. Hubris and intentional ignorance.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#137

Post by dllthomas »

fleitz wrote: post #133
ilovepolitics wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't actually considered that the system is reasonable as it is. Which is the hubris that I'm talking about. I don't blindly trust institutions. But I also don't blindly distrust institutions when the system they perpetuate has merit. Life is quite good in America if you're in the middle class as compared to the standards of living in the past and around the world. I'm careful with my judgements as I understan…

You know the 'middle class' is people making 250K+ right? In most countries the middle class are doing fine and live well. It appears that high school and middle school have done their job of building trust in US institutions. Yes, it's completely alright that Mr. Obama went from constitutional scholar to repeatedly lying to the public about the scope of surveillance in the country. Remember the debate he wanted to h…

Wikipedia says: "Depending on the class model used, the middle class constitutes anywhere from 25% to 66% of households."

Fewer than 5% of Americans make more than 250k/yr. So either that is not the cut-off for middle class, or a huge percentage of the former middle class is now lower class.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#138

Post by MattGrommes »

downandout wrote: post #134
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with the fundamental beliefs that he told the country he held prior to his election. Bush promised a humble foreign policy with no nation building. He had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious prob…

This statement was made pre-9/11 - an event that changed many things. But even this wasn't a dramatic shift in his views. If anything, Bush's reaction to 9/11 reinforced the image he presented prior to his election. Whether you agreed with his views or not, few would argue that his reaction came entirely out of left field. By contrast, this NSA/Obama issue proves that we simply don't know the person that is sitting i…

Imagine a presidential candidate making promises and saying a lot of things that he believed in about spying and how the agencies involved should work. Then he gets into office and finds out that things are much worse than he could have possibly known before getting into office. Would you prefer he keep to the path he laid out in campaigning or deal with reality as it is, even if it goes against his beliefs? I try to be smarter today than I was yesterday, I hope somebody in such a position of power would do the same.

Note that I have no idea if this is anywhere near true and I don't believe in what Obama and the various agencies have done but I do believe something like this is closer to the truth than some grand scheme by Obama to lie himself into power.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#139

Post by fleitz »

dllthomas wrote: post #137
fleitz wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the 'middle class' is people making 250K+ right? In most countries the middle class are doing fine and live well. It appears that high school and middle school have done their job of building trust in US institutions. Yes, it's completely alright that Mr. Obama went from constitutional scholar to repeatedly lying to the public about the scope of surveillance in the country. Remember the debate he wanted to h…

Wikipedia says: "Depending on the class model used, the middle class constitutes anywhere from 25% to 66% of households." Fewer than 5% of Americans make more than 250k/yr. So either that is not the cut-off for middle class, or a huge percentage of the former middle class is now lower class.

It's the middle class, not middle income quintile. It would seem to be pretty ridiculous to me that more than 5-10% of America were doctors, lawyers, etc.

Perhaps in the US it's the middle class includes the working class but in my estimation middle class means you still derive most of your income from working but you own a decent portion of the means of production.

If the middle class means households making 100K then I would estimate that a couple working as tech support and a caregiver are middle class rather than working class.

To me it works like this:

  You derive your income from capital: Upper class
  You work and own a decent portion (5%+ unless public) of your employer: middle class
  You work: working class.
eg. My mom was a phone operator, my dad was a mechanic, they're working class despite making more than $100K inflation adjusted.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#140

Post by mkaziz »

MattGrommes wrote: post #138
downandout wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement was made pre-9/11 - an event that changed many things. But even this wasn't a dramatic shift in his views. If anything, Bush's reaction to 9/11 reinforced the image he presented prior to his election. Whether you agreed with his views or not, few would argue that his reaction came entirely out of left field. By contrast, this NSA/Obama issue proves that we simply don't know the person that is sitting i…

Imagine a presidential candidate making promises and saying a lot of things that he believed in about spying and how the agencies involved should work. Then he gets into office and finds out that things are much worse than he could have possibly known before getting into office. Would you prefer he keep to the path he laid out in campaigning or deal with reality as it is, even if it goes against his beliefs? I try to…

It would be too much to hope that he would make the public aware of why he decided to change his opinion, would it?

Government always thinks it knows better.

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