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Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

reuters.com

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Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#131

Post by _djo_ »

belorn wrote: post #108
_djo_ wrote: post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

That is a nice theory and all, but I must ask, is it more than that? We got the comments from each party privileged to the private deals each company made. We can cut away the commentary of the article, and still be left with a finger pointing at NSA. At that point, we can either trust that they speak the truth, or think they are lying. > lower operating cost than the Rafale or Super Hornet, Saab has agreed to transf…

Again, the NSA-as-primary-factor angle only applies if you believe that the Super Hornet was far and away the front-runner to win the F-X2 contract. Yet that's hardly certain, especially as the Brazilian defence industry and military had expressed a preference for the Rafale and Gripen.

The basics of the Saab offer have likely been the same for more than a year now, including talks on the KC-390 and the option of leasing JAS-39C and D aircraft for an interim capability.

What has changed is that Brazil has been forced to retire all 12 of its Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft by the end of the year, as they have reached the limit of their service lives without costly refurbishment. This has left a gap in the country's air defence capability that needs to be filled urgently, meaning that the government had no option but to finalise F-X2. Until now successive governments have treated it as a political football, being unwilling to commit to the high cost in case it cost them at election time.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#132

Post by leoedin »

cylinder wrote: post #16
_djo_ wrote: post #5

Claiming that the NSA scandal is the primary reason for the Saab win is an overly US-centric view. While there's evidence that Boeing's chances were hurt by the NSA revelations, it's not true that Boeing was a clear favourite. Both Saab and Dassault had presented strong bids and were considered serious contenders, particularly as both offered much higher industrial participation and technology sharing than Boeing and…

People need to realize that companies like Boeing, GE, etc. are hardly even viewed as "American" overseas. We (Americans) like to think they are, but these companies are decidedly multinational with huge operations in many, many countries that employ thousands. They also make lots, if not the majority, of their revenue in non-US markets. Their headquarters may be in the US (not always), but they could easily migrate…

As nether indicated, they are definitely viewed as American. Why? ITAR. Anything that's even been near America (or worked on by an American, or contains a tiny American component) suddenly becomes poisonous. While you might be right about some classes of large corporation (oil companies, banks etc), the defence industry has a HUGE divide between American and non-American.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#133

Post by sebcat »

Sweden sent five JAS39C Gripen to Libya as a part of Operation Unified Protector in 2011. I was told that they performed well in the surveilance role with their "spaningskapsel" (surveilance capsule?), providing intel to the coalition. If anyone has any insight in how well Gripen as a platform performed during that op, please share.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#134

Post by kiriberty »

jeltz wrote: post #58
cylinder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to realize that companies like Boeing, GE, etc. are hardly even viewed as "American" overseas. We (Americans) like to think they are, but these companies are decidedly multinational with huge operations in many, many countries that employ thousands. They also make lots, if not the majority, of their revenue in non-US markets. Their headquarters may be in the US (not always), but they could easily migrate…

Swede here: Boeing and GE are viewed as about as American a company can get.

I would add McDonalds too. But can't figure out if NSA has to do anything with them... still thinking...

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#135

Post by jacalata »

wil421 wrote: post #123
jacalata wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does 'having a renaissance' have to do with whether they are American or not? If anything, they are becoming more 'American' with their high-PR plans to build stuff in the USA. Their products all have 'designed in California' etched on them. They are, and they want to be, American.

>Maybe the younger generation, much more focused on and exposed to computer/electronics brands, doesn't care much for Boeing or GE. But to anyone here over 30, Boeing is pretty damn 'American'. This is why I said that, younger people see Apple more than older people do because of the "renaissance." You could easily counter with the Apple 2 in the 80s... Edit: they want to be Californian, they are different note how i…

I don't remember the 80s, so I don't know what you would say about the apple 2 :) as a non-American under 30, I consider apple very American. California is American like Hollywood and NYC.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#136

Post by tanzam75 »

rbanffy wrote: post #52
msantos wrote: post #8

The French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy. Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausibl…

> old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets. They cannot be controlled after lit (the VL…

> I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets.

Sure they do.

For example, NASA's LADEE mission was launched to the moon in September 2013 on a Minotaur V: a five-stage all-solid rocket.

Last month, India just launched a Mars orbiter using the PSLV: a 4-stage rocket with only the second and fourth stages being liquid. The first stage was solid, and had 6 solid rocket boosters. Thus, it launched entirely on solids.

And of course, there are lots of liquid-fueled rockets with solid boosters on liquid-fueled rockets. The French Ariane 5, for example, has one liquid core stage plus two solids. The solids produce 92% of thrust at liftoff. Solids are great at producing thrust.

The American Titan IIIc rocket took this configuration to its ultimate conclusion. It was launched solely on the solid rocket boosters. The liquid-fueled core stage did not even ignite until a couple of minutes into the mission, i.e., although it was at the bottom of the stack, it actually served as a second stage.

If you're talking about spacefaring nations that avoid solids, you're really only talking about the Russians, Chinese, and Ukrainians. They only use solids on military missions, and stick with liquids on civilian missions. They get the necessary thrust by clustering lots of engines together.

The Chinese moon rover, for example, was launched on a Long March 3B with a total of 8 engines ignited at lift-off -- 4 liquid-fueled engines in the core stage, plus 4 liquid rocket boosters. Yes, that's right, even their strap-on boosters are liquid-fueled.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#137

Post by JebediahK »

rbanffy wrote: post #52
msantos wrote: post #8

The French bid was turned down by the President herself after major set backs in the current France-Brazil partnership building a nuclear submarine for the Brazilian Navy. Not mentioned here is the fact that old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad and killed the cream of the crop of the Brazilian space program, have recently been resurrected and it's believed plausibl…

> old conspiracy theories surrounding the explosion that destroyed the Alcantara launch pad I have to point out the VLS launcher has a seriously weird all-solid-fuel design. I am not a rocket scientist, but, as an engineer, I have to wonder what the hell those rocket scientists knew no other spacefaring country did since nobody launches satellites on all-solid-fuel rockets. They cannot be controlled after lit (the VL…

Indeed, In my experiments trying to reach the mün i would never use Solid fuel rockets.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#138

Post by JebediahK »

sanoli wrote: post #130
msantos wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they do not have police powers and thus cannot arrest people Let's face it, that's not exactly what their website says. A translation would be more like ... policing is beyond their "job scope" and detaining, arresting and interrogating are activities incompatible with the Intelligence work they do - for obvious reasons. So, saying that they don't detain nor arrest people is fair point. Although they could detain a…

Actually, that's pretty accurately what their website says: "Can ABIN arrest people? No. ABIN doesn't have police powers/attributions." Original in Portuguese: A ABIN pode prender pessoas? Não. A ABIN não tem atribuições de polícia. Deter, prender, custodiar ou interrogar são atos incompatíveis com a atividade de Inteligência. Saying any Brazilian citizen can detain someone caught in a criminal act is not what we're…

ABIN cant arrest a fart after eating a plate of beans. The majority of citizens in Brazil consider it a joke. Its real job is to spy in local political enemies and blackmail.

Re: Saab wins Brazil jets deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid

#139

Post by JebediahK »

jeltz wrote: post #68
jusben1369 wrote: post #41

Sounds like Brazil went with the low price leader (French comments were interesting) and didn't miss a chance to stick it in the eye of the US with a couple of anonymous quotes. If you follow the other logic it's pretty depressing "Yes, you had the better technology and were the preferred choice but we went with an inferior product because of spying and no that wouldn't make us feel really stupid if we get into a war…

A third possible explanation could be (I do not know enough about US-Brazilian relations to know if it is plausible): Before we thought you were an ally we could trust, so we were going to buy your overpriced jets to strengthen the friendship. Now that you have showed your true face we are going to go with the lowest bidder instead. Saab has lost several bids due to countries buying worse planes from the US for diplo…

Brazil would only buy overpriced from USA if 1. There is some payback to be had. 2. There is some bribery to be received. 3. There is money to be allocated to a personal account. 4. The USA is arm wrenching some official using information illegally obtained.
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