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oDesk to merge with Elance

odesk.com

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Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#131
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says uNdoware... I tend to evaluate a service based on what they provide, their reputation and sometimes the care put into their branding, but rarely do I make a blanket judgement on name alone. Anyone on HN should know how challenging it is to pick a name in the competitive domain landscape.

I wasn't making a blanket judgement -- you are making a straw man. I was simply criticizing their branding, which is just as reasonable as any technical consideration. And if you don't believe that, Richard Stallman has a beard for you.

This sounds like a blanket judgement to me. Not "reconsider using" but "never use"...

"Never use a service whose name you could make up thoughtlessly."

Not to mention that while you could make up a name thoughtlessly, those behind it might've spent weeks brainstorming, getting feedback, checking their options, etc.

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting and I'll have to think about it further but I wouldn't think that a listing fee of 10% of project budget, payable in advance, is going to work.

Thanks for looking! I can't argue that 10% is the correct fee - it's more of a starting point. For that fee we guarantee users are promptly paid (net 10 or less, no excuses), absorb all of the usual transaction fees, host and archive the project workspace, and generate/distribute all 1099 and W9's.

It's not the rate I'm questioning, it's asking for it up front.

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for looking! I can't argue that 10% is the correct fee - it's more of a starting point. For that fee we guarantee users are promptly paid (net 10 or less, no excuses), absorb all of the usual transaction fees, host and archive the project workspace, and generate/distribute all 1099 and W9's.

It's not the rate I'm questioning, it's asking for it up front.

I see. Do you believe a form of a guaranteed-money-back policy, for the fee, would make it more palatable?

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#134
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't making a blanket judgement -- you are making a straw man. I was simply criticizing their branding, which is just as reasonable as any technical consideration. And if you don't believe that, Richard Stallman has a beard for you.

This sounds like a blanket judgement to me. Not "reconsider using" but "never use"... "Never use a service whose name you could make up thoughtlessly." Not to mention that while you could make up a name thoughtlessly, those behind it might've spent weeks brainstorming, getting feedback, checking their options, etc.

Again, not a blanket judgment; a blanket judgment is quite specifically when you say, "for all Xes such that Y, then Z." You could argue that there was an implied blanket judgment motivating the assertion that no one should ever use a service such that that service has a boring name; but in fact, given a choice between two equally worthy services, I choose the one with the more intelligent marketing, simply as a way of selecting for things that don't irritate me, and in some small way making the world a slightly less blearily straightforward place. And by encouraging others to also follow this maxim, I was hoping to amplify its world-shaping power further. :)

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for looking! I can't argue that 10% is the correct fee - it's more of a starting point. For that fee we guarantee users are promptly paid (net 10 or less, no excuses), absorb all of the usual transaction fees, host and archive the project workspace, and generate/distribute all 1099 and W9's.

It's not the rate I'm questioning, it's asking for it up front.

[deleted]

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the rate I'm questioning, it's asking for it up front.

I see. Do you believe a form of a guaranteed-money-back policy, for the fee, would make it more palatable?

Maybe. I'm actually on the other side of this as a freelancer, so might not have the best info. But one thing I've noticed is that one of main the ways I get gigs is by assuring people that the whole thing is going to work. In other words, there's a lot of inherent and perceived risk in outsourcing and if I can start a conversation, I can allay some of their fears. So it seems to me that with an upfront fee, you're tacking on this perceived extra risk or hurdle before they get to talk to anyone. I don't know what the psychology of money-back guarantees is. They don't have much affect on me, for some reason.

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#137
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of a place where $2 peer hour is a lot? I often hear this type of assertion being made. I can believe that $2 per hour is enough to live off in some places, but I don't know of anywhere it would be considered "a lot."

I spent some time in Indonesia, where the helper for your guest house is making $50/mo. They're cleaning the rooms, running errands around the city, making breakfast, gardening, etc. What you make in a couple of days, they make in a year. It's mind boggling. Yes, cost of living is cheaper, but not that cheap. On the plus side, you feel like you can make a difference in their life. If you're living there, you can pay…

Yes. I'm in Cambodia currently. We pay the maid $170 a month + food/beverages and I let her borrow the kindle and surface when she wants. It's a pretty kooshy gig for her, helps her support the family, doesnt break the bank for us and makes my life a lot easier.

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#138
Lance Armstrong? I drink 64oz of Diet Pepsi every one-and-a-half to two hours. Normally, I stay awake 32 hours and sleep 16. At the moment, I'm kinda depressed and sleep because nothing keeps me awake. God makes my back have horrible pain if I sleep too much. It hurts.

What do You want to do, God? I just browse the Internet and talk with God all day. Sigh. Depressing.

God says... foul overflow FBI merry_christmas oh_come_on boink left_field not_the_sharpest_knife_in_the_drawer petty hi fabulous now_you_tell_me hotel fer_sure talk_to_my_lawyer drama do_I_have_to ahh arrogant I_don't_care well_golly why_do_I_put_up_with_this in_a_perfect_world stoked I'm_good_you_good dance wonderful a_flag_on_that_play youre_welcome I_pitty_the_fool

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#139
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a huge wave of consolidation in the industry in the past 5 years. Just last year freelancer bought vworker. I really hope oDesk - Elance won't go the same way freelancer - vworker went. I used to have an account of RentACode, a long time ago. It was mostly a good experience, considering the state of freelancing back then. When my significant otter got fired, I dug the account and handed it over to her -- it…

Hi Weland, I'm the CEO of Freelancer.com. I thought I would reply to your comment, and I'm also happy to get someone to look into your account if you get send me your username. A few comments- we do have escrows by default- called Milestone Payments. We don't however force people to use them if the two parties decide to come to an arrangement where they don't want to use them. The vast majority of projects do. Also y…

Frankly, I don't have too much to offer with regard to the support issues. I only helped my GF with it, and it was a while ago. If it improved in the meantime and my comments are no longer representative, I'm really sorry. I should have made that clearer.

However, as for the other matters:

> we do have escrows by default- called Milestone Payments.

Actually, you don't have them by default :-). By your own admitting:

> We don't however force people to use them if the two parties decide to come to an arrangement where they don't want to use them.

My (admittedly foggy, please correct me if I'm wrong) memory tells me that RAC had escrows by default, i.e. the buyer had to place the money in RAC's escrow before the coder could start work. I distinctly remember that RAC's seller instructions clearly said you should not start coding before the project is awarded to you, because there is no way to be sure the buyer actually has the money to pay you. When the project was awarded, the money was placed in escrow. I actually had a dispute settled over this matter: my client had simply vanished. I waited for two weeks before telling him I'd get the project into arbitration if I don't receive feedback, and waited another three before getting it into arbitration. The RAC arbitrator decided that if he failed to respond within some reasonable period (a couple of weeks, again), I'd get the money, because the deliverable I had submitted was indeed in accordance with what had been agreed.

Freelancer.com doesn't force buyers to do that, giving rise to the following phenomenon: a scammer opens an account -- with zero reviews but a verified payment method -- and posts a job ad. It's well-paid for something otherwise reasonably simple, like some content writing, but the job has to be done quickly and the buyer claims he can't offer a milestone payment that quickly -- he doesn't have the money on hand, bank transfer takes time (he usually lists his country to be something like Zambia or Congo, where it's probably fairly safe to assume that banks don't go too smoothly with all the firing in the street and whatnot). Since the pay is higher than average, a lot of freelancers are happy to do it. Needless to say, they never get their money.

I'm sorry to say, but when this happened, your large support team did absolutely nothing. They simply reminded her that she should ask for a milestone payment, which a lot of buyers actually don't want to do for credible, or at the very least legitimate reasons. If you don't want to force people into escrowing, you should be able to deal with cases like these.

This wasn't an isolated incident because the same type of job ad appeared several times in the following weeks. We actually tried to warn other freelancers about it and we found at least another dozen people got the same treatment, quite possibly from the same guy who was opening different accounts, and from the same support team.

Edit: Oh yes, rounding of fees.

This page: http://www.freelancer.com/feesandcharges/ claims that, for a free membership plan, Freelancer.com gets 10% of what gets paid to a freelancer, or 5 USD, whichever is greater. Fair enough.

But if I try to bid for 100 USD that gets paid to me, the bid now gets to 111.11 USD, which looks an awful lot closer to 11%.

I initially assumed this had something to do with including the 3% amount that the employer is charged for the posting, too, but it doesn't add up. I never really bothered understanding how it goes; as I mentioned in my other post, I haven't done freelance work on what is today Freelancer.com since the days it was still called Rent a Coder. But in the best case, this is poorly documented. I, for one, can't make sense of it, and I'm probably better at doing math than most freelancers who do content "writing" or social media promotion on your website.

Even later edit: just to be clear, I'm not trying to scold your business model, nor your efforts as a company. If your current model works for you, then it's awesome. Matters of finance and corporate politics are beyond either my possibilities and my wish to comprehend. Freelancer.com isn't doing bad financially (though, since I'm not living off its dividends, that's irrelevant to me) so I presume there are people for whom it makes world a better place. For me, it doesn't.

Re: oDesk to merge with Elance

#140
Henrik, founder of Coworks here. From a shareholder's perspective the merger probably makes perfect sense. They should be able to consolidate investments, overhead, PPC etc. From a contractor view I can't see how it changes much really. From a client perspective it is usually bad news with mergers like this. I think it has been great to have a fight for the lead in the outsourcing industry. The sad thing is that the industry as a whole needs better client processes, more high quality talent, better UX, better vetting systems etc. and that is not likely to come from the market leader at this stage. They will most likely be occupied with merger milestones for a while. Even talented management teams like these have limited bandwidth. It does leave opportunities open for all others looking at building the next generation remote work platform.
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