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About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

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Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#131

Post by raverbashing »

ebiester wrote: post #111
radicalbyte wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've basically described C#: Getters, setters fixed? Check. Functional features? Check. Most crappy OO features fixed? Check. Trendy package system inspired by npm/apt-get/gems? Check. Healthy community with libraries replacing frameworks? Check. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

Has the Mono story gotten better? How feasible is it to develop without thousands of dollars of Microsoft software these days?

It has been some time since I tried it

Basically, YMMV.

To develop, sure, it is feasible (I did this, but for a simple webservice), but it may be missing something essential to you.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#132

Post by ControllerLowDC »

bhauer wrote: post #120

I've had the misfortune of using the PayPal Java SDK to integrate PayPal credit card and Express payment into a web application. Based on that experience, I find it especially difficult to digest any opinion that PayPal has on Java. They may be experts on handling money, processing credit card payments, fraud prevention, and the like. (Or maybe not, given their reputation.) But their opinion on Java is about as meani…

Precisely.

I spent some time at PayPal and, one thing I think is being lost in all of these discussions is exactly what was "fixed."

All your points on introducing new practices to an older, establish (in the company) framework and technology are spot on. I see this as more a way to shake things up and improve things under the guise of new tech.

Also, this is in the top-most bit of their stack. All of the underlying services are the same. That's where the majority of the latency exists and a lot of it comes from old-school PayPal. But you can't shift a company by trying to tackle a deeply integrated bit of architecture first. The easiest place to demonstrate that change is feasible and actually quite beneficial (to a company that has been change-averse in the past) is your app tier. Get them on your side with an easy (easier?) win, then tackle the harder problems.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#133

Post by fat0wl »

porker wrote: post #128
fat0wl wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks but I've seen a lot of similar comparisons and they seem to focus on trivial things :/ For example the portion about "Asynchronicity" is a brief paraphrase like "Play is good in Rails its awful or doesn't exist". Performance isn't even mentioned really. I find that with Rails apps a lot of development effort is put toward optimizing for scaling rather than complex logic, where Play could potentially be stronge…

> looking at Play as a potential new framework for a CRUD app with a very fancy UI. Do you know of any frameworks that are good for that (but let you easily reach down for complex logic, e.g. where data processing or AI is needed)? Every project I do needs some form of CRUD, and making it work AND be pleasing to interact with takes a lot of time. I don't mind the language, just someone, somewhere must have solved thi…

Hmmm I don't know. I think the conventional wisdom is to use a service-oriented architecture with the best front-end tools you can find.

The advantage of JVM in my opinion is that a lot of their toolchains have this approach in mind and simplify integration of the stack. Java can be used for a lot, when you add in other JVM languages that is a lot of possibility. Then again, if you design proper web services you can make almost any front/back-end interact, the trick is just in minimizing that amount of impedance.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#134

Post by fecak »

pron wrote: post #110
fecak wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Java is widely adopted (thus my 'ubiquitous' comment). The fact that the commenter followed-up immediately with "some of its most painful points have been addressed in Java 8" led me to believe it was referring to being liked and not necessarily to being adopted.

I meant adoption, but mentioned that some of the issues that make it less well liked are being addressed. I think it possible (though far from inevitable) that another JVM language will achieve dominance on the JVM, and it is very possible that Java will fall below the 60% or even 50% on the JVM (with the rest being taken by several, though not one dominant, languages). But this is still some years in the future.

That seems to be a pretty popular opinion among the Java pros that I know. Some of the early Scala adopters seemed to believe that, and many are likely still of that opinion. It may take years for an alternative JVM language to be dominant in terms of overall code, but might not be quite as far off when using a metric such as 'new projects'.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#135

Post by sanderjd »

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #90
gngeal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that of all the things you've named, dynamically typed languages are hardly "a fad". It's surprising (?), though, that the lousy ones are the most popular ones.

I take a very cynical view of these things, and from that perspective it doesn't surprise me at all, really. My cynical view is that the "lousy" ones are popular because they are easy even for non-technical people to learn well enough to be useful in the majority of business settings. This sets up a kind of feedback loop: there is an abundant supply of "cheap" labor who can use these languages, which companies love,…

Alternate theory: "lousy" is a subjective measure, and those languages are popular because in many other peoples' subjective reality, they are not lousy. Just a theory though, by all means, keep thinking that languages are objectively ranked identically to your subjective ranking and anybody using ones at the bottom are just dumb dumbs who are incapable of using the ones at the top.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#136

Post by moomin »

radicalbyte wrote: post #44
ebiester wrote: post #28

I fantasize about rebuilding the java ecosystem. Create "JPM", don't allow anything from the old Maven system in it. Create a new "hip" minimalist framework that ignores everything about java and its notions of OOP. Basic dependency management handled NPM-style. Developers encourage to put everything in the same package for their own stuff, and everything is package level. Getters and setters and encapsulation and ja…

You've basically described C#: Getters, setters fixed? Check. Functional features? Check. Most crappy OO features fixed? Check. Trendy package system inspired by npm/apt-get/gems? Check. Healthy community with libraries replacing frameworks? Check. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

I'm sorry, but NuGet is a package manager that makes most Maven haters want Maven back...

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#137

Post by gfody »

hk__2 wrote: post #130
__david__ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Linux or Mac? http://www.mono-project.com/

Yes. Mono is not C#, it’s only a subset.

Please at least learn what Mono is before spouting this tripe.

http://mono-project.com/What_is_Mono

(hint: search for the word "subset" on that page)

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#138

Post by frowaway001 »

ebiester wrote: post #118
runT1ME wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not scala? Scala 8 years ago is where java 8 is now, and you can ignore most of the java frameworks.

Implicits, SBT being anything but simple, and compile times. :) People have suggested sticking to a subset of Scala for most purposes, but what happens when you run into a problem with a library? Suddenly, you're diving into Slick (from a friend's example) or Play (from a personal, painful example) and can't make heads or tails of the code because of how different the paradigm is. Frankly, I'd rather just go to Erlan…

What's wrong with implicits?

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#139

Post by Crito »

__david__ wrote: post #125
WildUtah wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You've basically described C#" Unfortunately the CLR doesn't run on any useful platforms.

Like Linux or Mac? http://www.mono-project.com/

The difference is that I can basically count on any arbitrary java/jvm program running on Linux, but even with Mono I don't get that same level of confidence with random c#/clr.

Now this may be largely a culture thing, with Java programmers creating more cross-platform software and avoiding platform dependent libs just by default, or it may be a technology thing, but to the end user it doesn't really matter.

Re: About PayPal's Node vs Java “fight”

#140

Post by gfody »

ebiester wrote: post #111
radicalbyte wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've basically described C#: Getters, setters fixed? Check. Functional features? Check. Most crappy OO features fixed? Check. Trendy package system inspired by npm/apt-get/gems? Check. Healthy community with libraries replacing frameworks? Check. I'd recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

Has the Mono story gotten better? How feasible is it to develop without thousands of dollars of Microsoft software these days?

Mono has gained serious traction the last few years. I've personally been using it along side .Net and am loving it. You could develop in Windows with the Free/Express versions of Visual Studio etc. and deploy binaries to Linux. You could also use monodevelop (http://monodevelop.com) in Linux or OSX. There are C# plugins for Eclipse and IntelliJ as well.

Relevant: http://www.mono-project.com/Companies_Using_Mono https://servicestack.net/features http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18450/is-mono-ready-for-p...

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