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Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

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Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#131

Post by serf »

fragmede wrote: post #69
andrewfong wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not worth the cost. On the consumer side, chargebacks are easy. Credit card companies bear the brunt of the cost of fraud. They all have the incentive in the world to start rolling out chip and pin technology. The fact that they haven't probably demonstrates that the math doesn't work out.

> Because it's not worth the cost. Neither are airbags in cars, yet the government stepped in and made them mandatory. > [Credit card companies] all have the incentive in the world to start rolling out chip and pin technology. No, their incentive is to make sure people keep using credit cards. They've done the math and concluded that the amount of user confusion resulting from chip and pin technology resulting in les…

>> because it's not worth the cost.

> Neither are airbags in cars, yet the government stepped in and made them mandatory.

that's simply untrue.

http://www.riskworld.com/news/97q1/nw7aa029.htm

this testimony is from 1997, and even with mostly first generation airbags in play at that time it's still wrong.

They are even more effective at saving lives now, and many of the problems with passenger side airbags have now been alleviated.

saved lives = saved money (unless you're looking at cost-to-state of an entire life rather than cost-to-state for medical/funeral costs, but that's outside the scope of this)

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#132

Post by serf »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #107
snitko wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just pay with Bitcoin? Really, after Bitcoin, using credit cards seems like an invitation to be robbed.

Because Bitcoin as a replacement for credit cards is currently just a pipe dream since less than 0.01% of people even know what it is, let alone have it. That plus its insane volatility is why it's only accepted by a handful of online merchants, mostly only for virtual goods and mostly just for show.

that insane volatility should drop with increased adoption.

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#133

Post by PeterisP »

wtvanhest wrote: post #111

Why wouldn't a VC back this and subsidize their business model until they could get critical mass, then sell to retailers and create the first real competitor for the major card companies. Conversely, if I were MasterCard or visa I would bar merchants from taking this card for my transactions to maintain competitive advantage.

Atually, I wouldn't be surprised if the currently existing rules would already bar merchants from taking such a card - technically, this is a cloned card that is not issued by a member of MC or VISA; and there are security rules/training for identifying cloned (blank) cards and refusing/detaining them as fraudulent.

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#134

Post by msbarnett »

chollida1 wrote: post #122
dangrossman wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get around it by being in the US, where there's virtually no chip-and-pin cards or readers.

> They get around it by being in the US, where there's virtually no chip-and-pin cards or readers Really? I'm very surprised. Canada has moved over many years ago. I thought we'd be following the US here. Is chip and pin in the works? ie is this a stop gap for the next year or two until its rolled out or is the US just not bothering with it?

> Really? I'm very surprised. Canada has moved over many years ago. I thought we'd be following the US here.

The US banking system is incredibly antiquated compared to Canada's (and much of the rest of the world's).

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#135

Post by PeterisP »

techaddict009 wrote: post #51

"Q. Will my Coin work outside the U.S.? A. Not in all cases. U.S.-based customers: Coin will work overseas, but we recommend that you bring a backup card when you travel. Customers located outside of the U.S.: Coin does not support EMV yet. If the country you live it requires it we recommend holding off your purchase for now." Found this in FAQ section.

"Coin does not support EMV" is an interesting statement - I can't see how they could ever support EMV without explicit cooperation from every issuing bank, which they won't have.

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#136

Post by wtvanhest »

PeterisP wrote: post #133
wtvanhest wrote: post #111

Why wouldn't a VC back this and subsidize their business model until they could get critical mass, then sell to retailers and create the first real competitor for the major card companies. Conversely, if I were MasterCard or visa I would bar merchants from taking this card for my transactions to maintain competitive advantage.

Atually, I wouldn't be surprised if the currently existing rules would already bar merchants from taking such a card - technically, this is a cloned card that is not issued by a member of MC or VISA; and there are security rules/training for identifying cloned (blank) cards and refusing/detaining them as fraudulent.

Yeah, actually after I made the comment I realize that that issue of acceptance is probably the reason they are selling this on kickstarter instead of a VC backing it. It may have been identified as a risk during YC and now they are still trying to make it work.

I hope the founder comments on this point. If it is usable and merchant contracts are in place for long enough, this is really cool. If there is a whole in the legal side, this feels like something that may not be ideal to back on kickstarter.

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#137

Post by PeterisP »

evck wrote: post #73
timrogers wrote: post #5

This product is overly restricting it's market, I feel, since in Europe EMV (or "chip and PIN" as it's known in the UK) is ubiquitous. Payments worldwide are moving over to this system from magnetic strip cards, so I fear that this (useful) product has been invented too late once the tech it relies on is already speedily in decline! I imagine, due to how the cryptography works, it might not be as simple to create a p…

It appears that they plan to do EMV in the future. This is rather scary, since you're trusting their hardware, and probably your phone, with the private key in your chip card.

As far as I know, EMV has no way for the user (or bank's employees, for that matter) to get that private key out of the chip card; if it was possible then the whole concept would be pretty much useless and allow easy cloning of those cards just like the old magstripes.

The system doesn't allow to "trust other hardware", the card itself has to sign every transaction.

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#138

Post by cstross »

dangrossman wrote: post #119
chollida1 wrote: post #116

How does this work with the typical credit card setup, ie chip and pin? Do they duplicate the pin of each credit card? In Canada I haven't' seen a place that doesn't use chip and pin for about 3 years now. Can someone shed some light on how they get around this?

They get around it by being in the US, where there's virtually no chip-and-pin cards or readers.

Aren't Visa and MC going chip-and-pin in the USA next year?

Re: Meet Coin (YC W13), a startup creating a universal credit card

#140

Post by untog »

lambda wrote: post #126

Hmm, pretty neat hack! I like the idea a lot. I'm disappointed that they didn't mention that this is hooked to an online service until you get well into their FAQ: Maintaining the integrity of your Coin’s data is critical to your peace of mind. That’s why our servers, mobile apps and the Coin itself use 128-bit or 256-bit encryption for all storage and communication (http and bluetooth). Additionally Coin can alert y…

The cloud part concerns me just from a functionality point of view. Does it require internet connectivity just for basic operation? It doesn't seem totally clear. I would certainly hope not.

I hate to sound incredibly cynical, but this sounds like a perfect example of Silicon Valley fluff that will never become mainstream. They aren't even the first SV company to be working on this product.

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