Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs' • Hacker News Board

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#131

Post by ahlatimer » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:09 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #73

Bsharp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal. > You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. 'Pure' can be easily defined, and it doesn't have to be 'pure' anyway…

> There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal. It is very easy for underage people to get hold of alcohol. It is ridiculous to suggest that drugs would be any different. It would make it much easier to buy. > Beer isn't pure alcohol, McDonald's burgers aren't pure beef, etc. I s…

> It is very easy for underage people to get hold of alcohol. It is ridiculous to suggest that drugs would be any different. It would make it much easier to buy.

While I was underage (I'm 24 now, so not long ago), it was easier to find weed than it was to find alcohol. The repercussions for selling weed to a 16 year old are the same as selling weed to an 18 year old are the same as selling to a 21 year old and so on. The repercussions for selling alcohol to a 21 year old versus an 18 year old or cigarettes to an 18 year old versus a 16 year old are entirely different, in that there are none if you sell to someone of legal age.

If you're already selling an illegal substance, there's no legal reason not to sell to someone who would otherwise be under age if the substance was legalized. What you're doing is illegal either way. With alcohol and tobacco, you're asking a store clerk likely making minimum wage to take a risk so you can buy alcohol. It's just way less likely to fly.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#132

Post by rodolphoarruda » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:17 PM UTC

I believe the results of decriminalization may vary according to your social context. I live in Brazil and I don't think decriminalization would reduce violence around here, it would, at its best, move the focus away from the drug addict to other parts of the society.

Collaborators from large drug organizations (tens of thousands of criminals, running millionaire operations, heavily armed) won't simply boo-hoo, go home and look for real jobs once drugs are decriminalized. They would look for the new weaker link of the chain and then concentrate all their violence on it. Once drugs are legalized and are freely sold on public points of sale (whatever government calls them), criminals would target the "supply chain" and distribution network. All of the sudden drug organizations would find themselves operating wholesale, not retail anymore. They would steal cargo to sell it at poor city areas or in places where official suppliers haven't established POSes yet. Stealing (buying for zero) and selling is much more attractive than "cooking" and selling. It's like outsourcing your production the bad way, keeping the benefit of higher profit margins. Higher margins lead to more competition, thus guns, thus violence among organizations (this is the current scenario in cities like Rio where drug organizations fight for territory dominance[1]). On the bright side, anyone interested in consuming drugs would be spared of this fight. They would be the same people who ever bought drugs, but now with the benefit of new regulations, treatment and care from the government.

[1] This video shows a battle between two drug organizations in Rio that mobilized around 100 members coming from different slums. You can see a great deal of collateral damage in the local population, and this is what my point is all about. Watch from 1:00 onwards (sorry, Portuguese language all the way). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etu6YWC-rT4 Criminals were even able to shot down a police helicopter killing two officers. Drug war at its finest.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#133

Post by rayiner » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #105

rayiner wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had far more invested in prohibition, with far more outright corruption (politicians on the take from bootleggers), but managed to end that somehow. The difference was that alcohol consumption was mainstream so ordinary voters cared about the impact of prohibition. Drug consumption is not mainstream and enforcement largely affects minorities, so ordinary voters don't care.

>We had far more invested in prohibition Is this actually true? We've invested an enormous amount in the war on drugs.

This is a must-see documentary, not just for its coverage of prohibition, but for the historical insights you can glean about American politics: http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition.

In a nutshell, prohibition was far more invasive and far more corrupt than today's drug war. Al Capone was a billionaire in today's money, and the drug lords of yore were willing to exert political influence in a way that maybe happens today in Mexico, but certainly does not in the U.S. Al Capone once walked into City Hall and pushed the Mayor of Cicero (which was a former independent city in the Chicago area) down the stairs and nobody touched him. Politicians and police were openly on the take from bootleggers in a way that is totally foreign to our modern sensibilities (unless you have any familiarity with the developing world).

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#134

Post by atom-morgan » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:43 PM UTC

harryh wrote: post #91

proksoup wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support the drug war ... for moral reasons? That mother showing pictures of her 4 missing boys in the article this thread is about, I think she would argue the war is immoral. I think the people who think the drug war is moral, would change their mind if they spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it. Baffles my mind, and when pressed in person, even pious blowhards admit there are serious violent death problems w…

If your daughter was routinely going over to a friend's house where the friend's parent was visibly high on a regular basis how would you feel about it?

What's your point here? If he had a problem with it, he probably wouldn't let his daughter go to her friend's house. Either way, we're still telling people what they can and can't put in their own bodies.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#135

Post by dreamdu5t » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:43 PM UTC

alayne wrote: post #96

dreamdu5t wrote: post #20

Kofi Annan does not have any prerogative to tell me or others what to do with their own bodies. Fuck the UN and Kofi Annan.

Sorry, but your libertarian utopia is never going to happen.

So, what, I should just shut up and get in line like you?

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#136

Post by mortenjorck » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:44 PM UTC

wh-uws wrote: post #86

willholloway wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a far off yet inevitable future of bounty and abundance... physical and emotional pain have been edited out of our genetic code, replaced by neurochemically enhanced empathy & bliss & a lavish minimum income frees our leaders to put social good ahead of job security. Until then, we're still living primitively... in the jungle as a savage, infant race.

is that from a movie?

Going to guess Arthur C. Clarke, but I've never actually read any of his books.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#137

Post by hcarvalhoalves » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #127

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's one of the most trafficked products in Brazil? Tobacco. Tons of counterfeit cigarettes cross the border between Paraguay and Brazil, and that funds crime syndicates. A legal and regulated product. Now imagine if marijuana or anything else is legalized... they will do the same thing to avoid taxation, which would go to fund health assistance, and buyers won't care about where it comes from - they'll ju…

> Tons of counterfeit cigarettes cross the border between Paraguay and Brazil, and that funds crime syndicates. A legal and regulated product. Yep, that's true (or maybe it's some illegal drug, but statistics on those aren't very reliable). Now just imagine what would happen if the entire brazilian tobaco market consisted of trafficked products. How big a mafia could you sustain with 10000 times more money? Anyway, t…

The point is, policy makers don't think like criminals.

I'm all for discussing legalization if we are talking about individual liberties (in which case, drugs can't be heavily taxed, to avoid a black market), but Kofi Annan and Fernando Henrique are presenting it as a solution to crime when there's no data back it up (the countries that legalized drugs so far don't face crime and poverty to begin with). So far it's just wishful thinking.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#138

Post by lewaldman » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:54 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #27

mildtrepidation wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without judging the sentiment, "legalize it and keep it pure" does not mesh at all with tobacco and alcohol, which are legal (and 'pure,' at least in the case of alcohol), being "the biggest killers of all" as an argument for legalization. Discussion on legalization of controlled substances like heroin is fraught with bias and misinformation. It's a discussion worth having, but clouding it with contradictions makes a…

Alcohol and tobacco are bigger killers than heroin because A: They're obviously much more widely used and B: heroin has very little health side effects. While alcohol and tobacco might have a larger "therapeutic index" then heroin, regular use can and does damage many peoples' bodies. Regular use of opiates causes constipation and a few other minor side effects. They aren't really comparable. The main reason for over…

The best and maybe the only approach for drugs like Heroin or Crack is (IMHO) the Swiss one:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-12-19/swiss-drug-addicts-giv...

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#139

Post by latj » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:55 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #114

tokenadult wrote: post #87

"We called on governments to adopt more humane and effective ways of controlling and regulating drugs. We recommended that the criminalization of drug use should be replaced by a public health approach." So the request here is not to say that everyone should use drugs however they wish without regulation, but rather that use of certain drugs should no longer be subject to criminal penalties. A few years ago, Richard…

"Stopping a war on drugs waged by the police and courts and prisons doesn't have to include giving up on discouraging drug use." There's big business in prisons and law enforcement. There's also big business in rehab and pharma. Getting the monied interests to shift their focus from one of incarceration to one of health shouldn't be this hard. We just need to shift dollars from one big industry to another. Perhaps ph…

Rehab and rehab drugs are already built into the prison industrial complex (in the U.S.).

But there is no incentive to "cure" people. A new therapy/drug just needs to appear effective long enough for the industry to come up with the next wave of therapies and drugs.

The real cure for rampant drug use is better schools and a move away from the growing gap between the haves and have nots. Fix that and you'll notice a change in one generation.

And the way to fix those things is by repairing a failed democracy so that public funds can be used for the good of the public instead of funneled into private hands.

And the way to repair a failed democracy is through a healthy media, dissent, active citizens willing to disrupt the status quo.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#140

Post by CamperBob2 » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 7:57 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #124

mgkimsal wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Stopping a war on drugs waged by the police and courts and prisons doesn't have to include giving up on discouraging drug use." There's big business in prisons and law enforcement. There's also big business in rehab and pharma. Getting the monied interests to shift their focus from one of incarceration to one of health shouldn't be this hard. We just need to shift dollars from one big industry to another. Perhaps ph…

Man the "money" argument for the drug war is so stupid. Private prisons are a small minority of prisons even today, and were very uncommon in the 1980s and 1990s when the drug war really heated up. Blaming monied interests is a cop out here. They are just the opportunists. Its "just say no!" moms and dads, teachers and school officials, that keep the drug war alive.

What's your opinion on the influence wielded by the prison guards' union in California? I'm led to believe it's disproportionately active in crime-and-punishment politics, but haven't seen much solid data.