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Confessions of a Drone Warrior

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Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#131

Post by malandrew »

grey-area wrote: post #37
enko wrote: post #17

I couldn't finish this article. It just makes me too angry. Warrior? How dare anyone involved in this dignify themselves with such an honour-laden term. They're just murderers, and the fact they hide behind so many layers of technology just makes it all the more cowardly and despicable.

Before you get too angry, consider that this experience is common of soldiers in war, not many of whom would after combat use terms like warrior. I doubt he chose the headline himself or was even asked about it, and it is contradicted by the tone of the article. There are far more important questions here than which labels are used to describe the people who carry out the killings. This one guy (part of the largest g…

    "This program has been expanded to Yemen, Somalia, 
    Pakistan"
So basically once we place a matured Boston Robotic's PETMAN robot on the ground we'll basically have created an analog of the dystopian future from Terminator, but instead of US soil, it will be on Middle Eastern soil. Truly disgusting.

We cannot state that we are a moral/ethical nation of laws with a justice system and routinely deny others a day in court because they are not living in this country. Last I checked, Congress has not declared war in Yemen, Somalia or Pakistan, so what are we doing conducting a war there. Exterminating someone without trial from the skies is not a police action.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#132

Post by philwelch »

alan_cx wrote: post #63
hooande wrote: post #48

Drones are just like any other tools of war. The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real, the stakes any lower or the human cost to the operator any cheaper. War is hell because of the horrible decisions that have to be made. Distance doesn't make it any easier. Drones don't kill innocent non-combatants, people do. There are many cases of civilians being…

"Drones are just like any other tools of war. " No they are not. The are risk free and relatively cheap, meaning its easier to order their use. The easier war is, the easier it is to make war. "The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real" Oh yes it does. There have been plenty of studies that clearly demonstrate this. It is always easier to press a butto…

> Oh yes it does. There have been plenty of studies that clearly demonstrate this. It is always easier to press a button that look a man in the eyes and shoot him.

I'm not so sure. That's probably true all things held equal, but that doesn't mean being a drone operator is any easier than being a ground soldier, psychologically.

My dad was a Marine. He was a combat engineer rather than an infantryman, but he saw his share of combat in three wars and while he absolutely hated killing people, the only way he could live with it was through the knowledge that in a combat situation, it's either you or them. That's emphatically not true for some specialties, like snipers and drone operators, and even seasoned combat veterans struggle with the moral weight of killing people without being in any danger themselves. Being in a firefight is hell but at least it feels like you're just trying to survive. Being a sniper or a drone pilot feels like you're just murdering people who pose no immediate threat to you. It's a tough thing to deal with.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#133

Post by mml »

jackpirate wrote: post #111
ams6110 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you join the Navy in the first place? Or did you come to realize your moral conflict only after you were already in?

After 5 years in the navy I applied for CO discharge. I was quite pro-military when I joined. It was what I wanted to be my whole life growing up.

The military exists on the backs of the young.

[Edit: I was once young too, I don't hold it against anyone. Nothing more heartbreaking than a 19y/o with the 1000 yard stare (which I've personally witnessed.)]

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#134

Post by rsheridan6 »

alan_cx wrote: post #63
hooande wrote: post #48

Drones are just like any other tools of war. The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real, the stakes any lower or the human cost to the operator any cheaper. War is hell because of the horrible decisions that have to be made. Distance doesn't make it any easier. Drones don't kill innocent non-combatants, people do. There are many cases of civilians being…

"Drones are just like any other tools of war. " No they are not. The are risk free and relatively cheap, meaning its easier to order their use. The easier war is, the easier it is to make war. "The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real" Oh yes it does. There have been plenty of studies that clearly demonstrate this. It is always easier to press a butto…

Most killings in war haven't involved looking a man in the eyes and shooting him for a very long time. At least as recently as WWI, most deaths (excluding disease) were caused by artillery shells fired by someone who would usually never see his victim at all. That's even more impersonal than killing someone with a drone.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#135

Post by dustingetz »

gbags wrote: post #78
hooande wrote: post #48

Drones are just like any other tools of war. The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real, the stakes any lower or the human cost to the operator any cheaper. War is hell because of the horrible decisions that have to be made. Distance doesn't make it any easier. Drones don't kill innocent non-combatants, people do. There are many cases of civilians being…

> The blame for the cost of war doesn't go to to the weapons or the people who pull the triggers. We're all responsible for the things done in our names, This is absolute and complete horseshit. I protest against war. I vote against war. I campaign for candidates who oppose war. I refuse to work for companies that profit from war. War happens anyway. A soldier surveys his opportunities and realizes he can put money i…

You do benefit economiclly from war, even if you don't do it deliberately. The American middle class lifestyle is made possible by acting in America's economic interests. Posturing about who deserves blame does not solve the fundamental issues.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#136

Post by stockliasteroid »

rsheridan6 wrote: post #134
alan_cx wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drones are just like any other tools of war. " No they are not. The are risk free and relatively cheap, meaning its easier to order their use. The easier war is, the easier it is to make war. "The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real" Oh yes it does. There have been plenty of studies that clearly demonstrate this. It is always easier to press a butto…

Most killings in war haven't involved looking a man in the eyes and shooting him for a very long time. At least as recently as WWI, most deaths (excluding disease) were caused by artillery shells fired by someone who would usually never see his victim at all. That's even more impersonal than killing someone with a drone.

But in those cases you don't know if you actually killed someone or not, you're just launching a shell off into the void. In this case the person pulls the trigger and then watches the carnage live and in IR/thermal. The action of pulling the trigger and the aftermath are inextricably interconnected. As perhaps they should be, but it's certainly not the same as being a gunner in an artillery battery.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#137

Post by stockliasteroid »

ams6110 wrote: post #95
grey-area wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you get too angry, consider that this experience is common of soldiers in war, not many of whom would after combat use terms like warrior. I doubt he chose the headline himself or was even asked about it, and it is contradicted by the tone of the article. There are far more important questions here than which labels are used to describe the people who carry out the killings. This one guy (part of the largest g…

Before you get too angry, consider that this experience is common of soldiers in war, not many of whom would after combat use terms like warrior. Indeed, most of the people I hear glorifying war and the military in general have never seen combat. Most of the people I know who have seen combat, don't like to talk about it at all.

And pretty much all of the people who vehemently condemn anyone who has ever been in combat (and in a sense being a drone operator qualifies, it carries many of the same moral issues) equally have no experience with combat either. Why does't that make their viewpoint equally invalid? They have no more experience with it than the armchair GI Joe's... As you say, most who have experienced combat directly (my wife's uncle is an ex-Delta Force operator, no joke) don't talk about it.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#138

Post by stockliasteroid »

Sagat wrote: post #53

Sorry, if you are not putting your life on the line, you do not deserve to call yourself a "warrior" or any other term which implies duty and honor.

Seems he put his mental health on the line... As someone else here so nicely pointed out, being a drone op isn't an "it's him or me" situation, you're clearly aware that it's just the other guy that's at risk. So if you do have a conscience, this could be a lot harder to deal with than popping a guy who's shooting at you with an AK, at least in a sense in that case you were defending yourself. This guy seems painfully aware of the fact that he bore no risk and he feels guilty for that. It's not shell-shock, but it's the moral equivalent.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#139

Post by stockliasteroid »

alecco wrote: post #121
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you help me understand something? The doctrine of mutually assured destruction is what keeps countries from launching nukes at each other. In order to have that doctrine in place, we need people in the military who are willing to launch nukes, and that military needs to be firmly under the control of the civilian government. In that context, was your objection to fire any nuke a personal decision, i.e. you pers…

> The doctrine of mutually assured destruction is what keeps countries from launching nukes at each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Cri... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLA_Marshall#World_War_II_comb...

We haven't seen a major nation-state conflict between nuclear powers since nuclear weapons were invented. Of course there's no counterfactual, but it does seem given the state of relations with Russia it's likely that sans nuclear weapons we would have had a major conflict with them at some point. Also, try reading this, it's a decent summary of nuclear strategic thinking: http://www.amazon.com/The-Bomb-A-New-History/dp/0061537209

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#140

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

phaus wrote: post #124
phaus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be exceptionally lucky. In most cases they will ruin your life before they give you conscientious objector status.

Just to elaborate on this, conscientious objector status won't always disqualify one from military service. In past scenarios where people were drafted, conscientious objectors were often given non-combat related jobs. On today's battlefield, a non-combat job doesn't mean much, because there isn't really "enemy" or "friendly" territory.

Yeah. Like SS Totenkopf and the Jews. The enemy might be anywhere and there is no friendly territory.
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