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Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

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Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#131

Post by corin_ »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #126
corin_ wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a debate about how things work, "you're wrong because we know you're wrong" isn't a useful argument. As to comparison to other animals, we also know that there is a genetic component to being able to live under water, as fish can do this and humans can't, this doesn't mean some humans are better than others at living without air.

The difference being that humans aren't descended from fish, but are descended from apes. We know that some kind of incremental genetic "improvement" to our intelligence must have evolved and then become universal throughout the populations that speciated to become modern humans.

First, to be pedantic, we aren't descended from apes, just very closely related to them with a common ancestor.

Second, is there any evidence that the evolutionary history of intelligence was linear? How do we know that there wasn't a binary-like change where one generation didn't have our level of intelligence and the next did, and all humans today are descended from that single change, as opposed to it happening gradually?

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#132

Post by defdac »

xenophanes wrote: post #116
electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

You claim to "demonstrate that it's a lot more complex than just environmental factors". But the correct conclusion from what you said is that you demonstrated that it's a lot more complex than just the environmental factors that you thought of. You seem to be concluding genetic factors ("always had an intrinsic motivation"). But "not all environment" does not imply "some genetics", that is a false alternative. There…

Reading this gave me goose bumps since you managed to describe and explain something I've been thinking about for a long time.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#133

Post by SeanDav »

electrograv wrote: post #30

Saying "Children aren't born smart" is equivalent to saying "Intelligence is determined entirely by one's environment", if I understand the claim correctly. While I'm sure talking to ones children contributes in a massively positive way to their IQ, I think it's extremely inaccurate and ignorant to the existence of real-world outliers to claim that it's the only factor. To provide just one example (out of many, I'm s…

You admit that your experience is an outlier ("and I'm definitely the only one like this from my family, a clear outlier"), yet you appear to be trying to use your experience to disprove the effect of environment on intelligence.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#134

Post by DanBC »

sandGorgon wrote: post #130
Kudzu_Bob wrote: post #38

I guess poor children hear fewer words because they don't watch much television.

actually this is a question that I had - could mediums like television, or a tablet app make up for the parents not talking ? Or does it need for the child to speak back ?

Conversation needs to be interactive and needs to respond to what the child is saying.

You need to repeat what the infant is saying. This is to let the infant know that you've heard them, and understood what they said. It's also to model correct pronunciation without criticising. And you then spin off the conversation to thinking and imagination and play.

"Look! A fire emiGGen!!"

"Yes! It's a fire engine! What do you think they're doing?"

(The 'sing song' voice we use to speak to young children feels silly. But apparently it's important.)

Television and tablets have their place, I guess. Some of the CBeebies content (Children's tv from the BBC) is good. And children need some empty relaxing time.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#135

Post by DanBC »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #65
aptwebapps wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a useless nitpick. It's not a scientific treatise, it's a public service message to try to change people's behavior. I don't believe for a second that the doctor believes that intelligence has no inherited component whatsoever. She is dealing with a problem in the real world using what tools she has at her disposal. Edit: Responding jamesaguilar's and true_religion's point about the title. Yes, that's true. I…

I don't know if it really qualifies as a nitpick to directly contradict the article's title.

I think we need to ignore titles.

HN doesn't allow changes to the title. People writing articles will chose a click-baity title.

All titles suck.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#136

Post by desas »

rustynails77 wrote: post #80
codex wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think his other family members did not share this desire?

I come from a unique environment that has allowed me to draw some very interesting conclusions. I am from a family of 3 children. Two adopted and one "unexpected" natural birth. One of the three of us has been in prison many times (and we have no other relatives that I know of that have ever been in trouble beyond the occasional speeding/parking ticket). The other of the three of us is a carbon copy of their biologic…

There are many more environmental factors than that, differences in behaviour between classmates, different friends, even the number of siblings are all environmental factors that I think make a difference.

You can all go to the same school with the same teachers but if one of you have a teacher on a Monday morning and the other has the same teacher Friday afternoon after teaching a stressful ill-disciplined class, then the second child may have a different view of that subject forever.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#137

Post by DanBC »

Volpe wrote: post #85
lutusp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How did the researchers determine causation? What if there is simply a gene for strong language which is responsible both for the parents' financial success and the child's academic success, and the extra words were simply a by product? Yes, it might well be the classic confusion of cause and effect, but your argument will have no effect on the OP, who is a psychologist. For reasons that may or may not be obvious,…

I think you may be blind to over generalisations... Can you show me the causal link between psychologists and this 'disorder'?

lutusp has strong anti-psychology sentiments. Conversations about it tend to be, uh, unproductive.

EDIT: It's a shame, because a lot of what he says about psychology and the flaws in the science is useful and interesting. Psychology has a lousy history of weak science. And any modern researcher could be making mistakes while striving for good science. So it's nice to hear from someone who does understand the importance of rigour.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#138

Post by supo »

girvo wrote: post #128
eulerphi wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cringed when I read you saying 'am pretty intelligent these days' Einstein, Euler, Reimann realized that the subjects and challenges were truly important, not their intelligence. Solve life, don't inflate self.

Nothing I work on is truly important. :) And I actually mean that. Not yet. Soon, perhaps, but not now. And I said "pretty intelligent", not that I was up there with the greats. I find it interesting you took that from my post!

Saying that you are intelligent is just so cringe-worthy. If you want to make a point about yourself give two small examples of what you've achieved and let the reader form an opinion.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#139

Post by prutschman »

r0h1n wrote: post #104
bdamm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, being too far ahead of the curve can become an emotional handicap all its own. Too bad we can't put kids like that together in the same schools.

I'm not sure whether you meant that sarcastically. If you did, I'm not at all a supporter of segregated schooling of any kind, be it class, 'abilities' or even neighbourhoods. There's value in kids growing up in a heterogeneous and diverse environment, and my comment was only meant to highlight how having an advanced vocabulary can sometimes hinder that.

Do you feel the same way about segregating individual classes by age? Having an advanced vocabulary is much less of an impediment if you're in a heterogenous and diverse environment which includes a diversity of ages.

Re: Children aren't born smart. They're made smart by conversation

#140

Post by Theodores »

baq wrote: post #100
sharkweek wrote: post #16

My boss's son is one of the smartest 18 month old kids I have ever met. He communication levels are through the roof, and for words he might not be able to say, or things he might not be able to express, he knows rudimentary sign language to communicate, e.g., he has a hand signal for "I'm tired" or "I'm hungry" -- he almost never has to cry to show he needs something. It's really quite impressive.

my 15-month daughter runs to her high chair when she's hungry. sometimes she skips the chair and runs directly to the fridge. i don't think it's unusual, i hear the same things from my friends. one related anectode: my boss' 3-yo son said to him, 'dad, i'm not stupid, i'm just small' :)

What took your daughter so long?

Quite a few pets sit by their kitchen feeding bowls when they get hungry. They learn to do this within a lot less time than 15 months.

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