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Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

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Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#131

Post by ctdonath »

haberman wrote: post #65
jlgreco wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be missing the key "the phone is, beyond doubt, yours" step.

I have been a juror on a criminal case that relied heavily on phone records. There was no fingerprint system involved, and yet it was clear beyond reasonable doubt that the phone belonged to the defendant. The phone company can testify that the phone corresponds to a given cell number. Other people can testify that they spoke to the defendant on that number. No one piece of evidence exists in a vacuum; all the pieces…

And if the phone was not used for a call?

I'm not contending the "wasn't really yours" point. Phones get stolen, misplaced, left behind, etc. with enough frequency that "it's your phone and it registered/triangulated with this position" may be strong circumstantial evidence but still isn't proof. That it was used in a manner requiring your finger (still attached to your body) does.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on protecting the accused from compulsion to self-incrimination. Just observing that the fingerprint sensor, coupled with the enormous data being collected on/about the device, isn't helping 5th Amendment rights.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#132

Post by sangnoir »

briandear wrote: post #118
adamconroy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem might be that you are secretly 'forced' to use it. What if NSA / govt tells apple to start harvesting all fingerprints of all users

And what would they do with that data?

Probably cross-reference it with their data?

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#133

Post by coldtea »

anigbrowl wrote: post #104
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just FUD. And saying baseless things like "that's never how it works", that's just fearmongering, not contributing to the conversation. It doesn't even make sense. It makes perfect sense -- you just need to follow the historical precedents, instead of looking for some inevitable logical reason why that would happen. Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have alw…

Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have always expanded their scope and reach. Yes, that's why you can't get on the internet except through AOL any more. Walled garden software was few and far between all through 1980-2010. What nonsense.

>Yes, that's why you can't get on the internet except through AOL any more.

I don't see any justification for your sarcasm.

It might not be called AOL today, but between FB and Google you have a even more widespread and far reaching modern equivalent. Add Youtube, Android, Google Fiber and Glass to the mix and the control and information gathered is even more than what was there to AOL's wildest dreams.

And between Google Search and Gmail, it's even less easy to switch to than from AOL. AOL was all disanvatages, whereas Google Search is best of class, as is Gmail. People are even afraid to leave FB (you see it all the time, even on HN threads) because of peer pressure and the effect on their social life. Leaving AOL never had that.

>What nonsense.

iTunes Store, Mac App Store, Windows Phone Store, Google Play Store, console software, etc etc. So called "post-PC" devices like the iPad have adopted the walled garden approach, that's not something to be argued, it's a fact.

Do you have any counter-examples, or just wanted to insult my response with the content-less reply of "nonsense"?

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#134

Post by coldtea »

sliverstorm wrote: post #114
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just FUD. And saying baseless things like "that's never how it works", that's just fearmongering, not contributing to the conversation. It doesn't even make sense. It makes perfect sense -- you just need to follow the historical precedents, instead of looking for some inevitable logical reason why that would happen. Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have alw…

Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have always expanded their scope and reach. And what better way to prove it than to cherry-pick examples.

>And what better way to prove it than to cherry-pick examples.

Examples are always cherry picked. The other option is called "exhaustive enumeration", and I don't think it's possible.

Let's just say that 50 years ago,

1) nobody could track your exact position 24/7, 2) there was not fingerprint matching, 3) you could still dissapear in a remote place with much fewer chances of people finding you 4) your friends didn't post pictures of you for all the world to see 5) people were not required to carry some sort of ID cards 6) your purchases could not be tracked in real time (cach or cachiers check's, no credit cards) 7) all your (snail then) correspondence was not automatically and efficiently read 8) CCTV wasn't prevalent 9) radio couln't track what you were listening to (as Pandora etc) 10) nobody kept track of what movies you watched (like Netflix, Youtube, etc) 11) They could track cars by reading their plates of some camera.

etc etc. And tons of other stuff besides.

It's nice living in a dream bubble, but all these do exist, and are a real tendency in a higher technological society. After all bureacracy and control with expand given the chance (and with the lack of any counter tendency), and technology is a huge enabler for it to expand.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#135

Post by [deleted] »

briandear wrote: post #115
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just FUD. And saying baseless things like "that's never how it works", that's just fearmongering, not contributing to the conversation. It doesn't even make sense. It makes perfect sense -- you just need to follow the historical precedents, instead of looking for some inevitable logical reason why that would happen. Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have alw…

Good grief. Then unplug your damned devices and go live in a cabin somewhere. Many of us speak as if our lives were so profound that governments everywhere are just dying to violate us. Even with everyone's data shared everywhere it becomes meaningless after awhile due to the sheer volume.

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#136

Post by coldtea »

briandear wrote: post #115
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just FUD. And saying baseless things like "that's never how it works", that's just fearmongering, not contributing to the conversation. It doesn't even make sense. It makes perfect sense -- you just need to follow the historical precedents, instead of looking for some inevitable logical reason why that would happen. Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have alw…

Good grief. Then unplug your damned devices and go live in a cabin somewhere. Many of us speak as if our lives were so profound that governments everywhere are just dying to violate us. Even with everyone's data shared everywhere it becomes meaningless after awhile due to the sheer volume.

>Good grief. Then unplug your damned devices and go live in a cabin somewhere. Many of us speak as if our lives were so profound that governments everywhere are just dying to violate us.

It's not about boring people living boring lives. They can go on doing whatever and not care. This is about people whose rights get violated, people that do things, from investigative journalism, to politics, to corporate whistleblowers, etc.

And it's not just about some boring, cozy little suburbian part of the world (as if Nowheresville, Iowa and Sunville, California is all there exists), it's also about people living in oppressive regimes, fucked up governments etc.

Those people push society forward. If it were only for people whose "lives are not profound", then we would still have slavery, no women's vote, no gay rights, and 15 hour workdays (including for children).

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#137

Post by abalone »

tlrobinson wrote: post #124
abalone wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is misleading. It is not a choice between a fingerprint or a PIN. Touch ID requires both a fingerprint and a PIN. If the phone hasn't been unlocked in 48 hours or has been rebooted, you have to enter the PIN. This would probably protect your 5th amendment rights in the case of going to court (since it would probably take >48 hours). Touch ID is there to make PINs more widely adopted, by minimizing the inc…

Excellent point, though once police departments realize this fact, they may force arrested people to immediately unlock their phones, or use their fingerprints, which they already collect, to do it. It would be nice if you could adjust the 48 hour timeout.

Touch ID doesn't work with copies of fingerprints that police collect. It actually scans the underlying living tissue with RF signals.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#138

Post by coldtea »

skwirl wrote: post #100
coldtea wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way everyone's talking, you'd think Apple was taking away the four-digit PIN! But they're not... The fingerprint ID is just another option, which you don't have to use. That's never how it works. Today it's "just another option", a few years down the line it's mandatory. And "not having to use" does not equal "people will not use it unless they are fully aware of possible consequences" anyway.

Oh, that's "never how it works?" You must be full of concrete examples that I will patiently await you posting here.

Well, check up in this thread for a list of a lot of examples.

I don't believe people, and much more, hackers, would deny that PC and technology gets more restrictive, and companies like to push that as much as they can.

Here's a few examples:

1) You could change the memory of a Mac laptop (but not with current versions where it's purposefully glud to the board).

2) You could expand a Mac Pro, change GPU, even CPU, etc (but not with the new version).

3) You could change the battery of older iPods, not with newer models, iPhones or iPads.

In general, todays more prevalent forms, from laptops to tablets are not user servicable like desktops (and even laptops) used to be.

4) You used to run anything on OS X without any restrictions. Now OS X added code signing and a mode that only let's you run signed-apps (and another mode that only let's you run only App Store apps).

5) Older (windows) tablets run everything. Then the iPad come that only runs iTunes Store iOS apps (without a jailbreak). Every company started adding stores (Play store, Windows store) to their offerings.

6) You could change GUI themes in Mac OS (Kaleidoscope, etc). Not with OS X.

7) Windows just needed a serial code from the box you bought. Then internet activation became mandatory. In general, software using the internet for purchase validation was few and optional. Now most software has some form of mandatory "activation" step.

8) You could buy Creative Suite in a box and use it forever. Now subscription is mandatory.

You can find tons more examples. Either stuff gets incrementally locked down or something cames along and replaces the previous form with a more restricted newer one.

You might want to reduce your sarcasm and read on this:

http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#139

Post by anigbrowl »

coldtea wrote: post #133
anigbrowl wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technologies introduced with the potential to control and restrict people (or users) have always expanded their scope and reach. Yes, that's why you can't get on the internet except through AOL any more. Walled garden software was few and far between all through 1980-2010. What nonsense.

> Yes, that's why you can't get on the internet except through AOL any more. I don't see any justification for your sarcasm. It might not be called AOL today, but between FB and Google you have a even more widespread and far reaching modern equivalent. Add Youtube, Android, Google Fiber and Glass to the mix and the control and information gathered is even more than what was there to AOL's wildest dreams. And between…

You're really equating apples with oranges with 'it might not be called AOL today...' All of your arguments are conclusory instead of evidence based, eg 'people are afraid to leave FB' - really? Afraid? Bullshit. Facebook has utility for them; if something of similar convenience and greater utility comes along, they'll use it.

iTunes Store, Mac App Store, Windows Phone Store, Google Play Store, console software, etc etc. So called "post-PC" devices like the iPad have adopted the walled garden approach, that's not something to be argued, it's a fact. Do you have any counter-examples, or just wanted to insult my response with the content-less reply of "nonsense"?

Yeas, but your claim was that this is a new thing. Go back and look at home computers in the 1980s or networking hardware in the 90s. Walled gardens have been around for ages: it was the basis of the AT&T monopoly that existed until the 70s (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walled_garden_(technology)) and used to be the norm in the motion picture industry at one time before antitrust actions forced the studios to divest their theater holdings.

Really, it's up to you to back up your own claims, not up to me to falsify them. You have a bad habit of drawing your conclusion first and then looking for evidence to support it. I personally find it helpful to begin by assuming I'm wrong and trying to falsify my hypothesis.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#140

Post by adamconroy »

unimpressive wrote: post #123
adamconroy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe our wires are crossed but I was hinting that the critics have been vindicated not Microsoft.

Yes, that's what I was asking about. Are you referring to the NSA leaks? Because I think there's a lot more to criticize about Microsoft than that.

No, not referring to NSA at all, and nothing specific just my overall impression. I was just trying to say that for many years I dismissed the critics of Microsoft as being biased for various reasons and was somewhat a MS defender. I now think they suck, not in the way an Apple fanboy thinks they suck, just an intangible impression.
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