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Don't reinvent the scrollbar

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Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#131

Post by aestra »

millstone wrote: post #83
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

Tell that to my mom. The only way she scrolls is to use the scroll bar itself as the interface, clicking the buttons. I try over and over again to convince her the scroll wheel is faster, and show her. She hates it, she strongly prefers the old way. She is old school. She can't get used to the scroll wheel. I'm not sure why. I'm not sure if it is just muscle memory or what.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#132

Post by TheZenPsycho »

coldtea wrote: post #126
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is mi…

> My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. That's a belief. I don't see any argument here. Why is it a mistake? Perhaps modern users, not tied to a legacy of scrollbars, could not care less about them? Perhaps 95% of users (with the exception of hackers) not even use them or notice them when they are there? > Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing…

See argument upstream- in summary, autohiding scrollbars:

Pros:

  Looks tidier sometimes
Cons:

  Causes frustration and confusion.
My question is: whose lives have been significantly improved by the addition of this feature? why does it exist?

> Whereas you are?

yes

> And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because?

because I am right and Apple is wrong.

On top of that, the reaction to my position is so weird. Oh Zen, if you had your way we would be FORCED by your tyrannical fascist ways to look at ugly scrollbars ALL the time instead of just some of the time. :(

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#133

Post by 3825 »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #111
x0054 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)

what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is mi…

We actually like to give choices so we don't have to make decisions. Making decisions without seeking like an arrogant asshole is difficult.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#134

Post by Gormo »

millstone wrote: post #83
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my preferred reading environment, but I hate that apple made this decision, because, as my sibling commenter here noted, it's outright user hostile. Apple never really totally understood the "visibility" requirement of usable interfaces. They like to hide things to make them look pretty, and it only leads to better advertising, not better interfaces. Thankfully there's still a setting to always show scrollbars.…

The scrolling interface is always visible. It's just on the input device instead of the screen. Originally, the scroll bar itself was the interface. You scrolled by clicking the little arrows, or by grabbing the scroll thumb and dragging. But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary. And with the advent of trackpad magic/mouse scrolling, which support both horizontal and vertical scrol…

> But when scroll wheels were introduced, the scroll bar became less necessary.

This isn't true; scroll wheels are more convenient than using the scroll bar for progressing through a document sequentially, but there's no facility for absolute positioning using a scroll wheel. You can't move to a specific point on the page with the wheel, and can only move in one direction or the other at a speed limited by how fast you can physically spin the wheel on the mouse.

Probably the best alternative to a scrollbar for absolute positioning that I've ever seen is the "document map" feature of some text editors, which provides a vertical thumbnail of the entire document in a column that works similarly to the way a mini-map in a game works: you see the layout of the document, zoomed out, and can click on exactly where you want to go.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#135

Post by TheZenPsycho »

dan1234 wrote: post #128
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't propose a solution. I asked a question: Whose problem is it to solve? The user's? Apple's? HN's? Apple certainly took it upon themselves to cause the problem. What's your proposed solution?

Scrollbars are hidden by default if OSX detects a Magic mouse/trackpad but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing that to always shown (or always hidden!), as well as the scroll direction. Maybe the solution is a prompt for a decision the first time OSX starts up, at the same time as the user is creating their account?

add a prompt you say? do you think anyone actually reads prompts? or do they just dismiss them as quickly as possible, since they're in the way of the actual task?

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#136

Post by super_mario »

bhauer wrote: post #27
mietek wrote: post #13

I was nodding along, when suddenly... > One alternative is to ignore iOS and OS X users. But that’s not very nice. There are many scrolling libraries available that you can use, such as NiceScroll. > Or you can just make your own indicator like the one seen at the very start of the article. Just don’t use a horizontal indicator for vertical progression :) No! Do not do this. Just stop. Stop reinventing and reimplemen…

Agreed. Not to put to fine a point on it, but if your user is on iOS or OS X, they are accustomed to losing sight of their progress because, as the article says, "Apple knows best." Going out of your way as a content author to correct for the user interface quirks of the reader's preferred reading environment seems extraordinary and unnecessary. Presumably a non-trivial number of iOS and OS X users actually like the…

I would go even further and say that the lack of scroll bar in OS X has lead to lower uptake of read material.

Here is what scroll bar does for me:

1. It gives me instant feedback about the size of the document (the shorter the scrollbar the bigger the document).

2. It shows me rough position in the document.

3. Provides reading context (I'm 35% into the document and I'm reading on subject X) which aids memorizing the material.

I'm a mathematician and numbers are my thing. Some people use number memorizing technique where they walk through a familiar place and assign numbers to landmarks. And to recall numbers they walk the route again in their head and "read" the numbers off the landmarks. This is the technique those freaks that can recite thousands and thousand of decimals of Pi use.

In effect the scroll bar does the same for me. It's my landmark and I assign topics to its position which allows me to remember better. If I want to quickly re-read something weeks later I can open the document and within seconds get there just by scroll bar position. And one could say search would work here too, but often times it does not because I don't remember exactly the string I want to find in the document (and some documents are not searchable).

Once I upgraded to Mountain Lion from Snow Leopard, I found the default scroll bar setting extremely bothersome and my read content retention much much lower until I put the scroll bars back.

So another anecdotal reason why dynamically showing/hiding UI elements is usually a bad idea.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#137

Post by TheZenPsycho »

x0054 wrote: post #119
x0054 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not…

I am of an opinion that one only needs a scroll bar when scrolling. On OSX the scroll bars are always visible when scrolling. You think you know better, and would like to overwrite my preference with yours. I don't think we will ever agree. I like options you like rules.

What does autohiding the scrollbars add to your life? How does it improve it? You avoid this question. You have no answer.

On the other hand, the presence of this option causes confusion and frustration, and, one could argue, significant economic harm as a result of the confusion and frustration.

Why is your preference (which you have not, and possibly cannot explain) more important than the confusion and frustration of everyone else?

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#139

Post by sbuk »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #99
supercoder wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This case is almost certainly preference. I prefer the indicators hidden, you prefer them on.

You prefer your car headlights off at night. I prefer them on. Completely preference, right? You missed my point. Just invoking the word "preference" is a weak argument. You need something more like an actual argument. With evidence and logic.

And reverting to reductio ad absurdum in an attempt to prove a logically weak position is better? Your closing works both ways. Your logic as far as I can see has basically been, to paraphrase; 'it annoys me'.

All recent (less than 3 years) Apple devices are sold either as touch devices or with touch enabled peripherals. Gestural interaction is the default paradigm of interaction on iOS/OS X (this is also true of Android devices). These users are largely used to this behavior, which can be changed if there is a desire to do so. This behavior does not affect users of other systems that don't support gestural interaction. There is no need therefore to cater specifically for Apple (or other) users as they, through daily interaction with their device, will intuit what to do. It puzzles me why the scrollbar still exists as an interaction device elsewhere. I really had to think about where and how they appear because I am so used to them simply not being there.

Perhaps you are looking at them in the wrong way. Where once the scrollbar was used for scrolling, it is now used to indicate the position the reader has reached on a page.

Re: Don't reinvent the scrollbar

#140

Post by Gormo »

coldtea wrote: post #126
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is mi…

> My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. That's a belief. I don't see any argument here. Why is it a mistake? Perhaps modern users, not tied to a legacy of scrollbars, could not care less about them? Perhaps 95% of users (with the exception of hackers) not even use them or notice them when they are there? > Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing…

"Designers" should never be put in a position of designing a UI. Claiming the mantle of "designer" usually seems to reveal a preference for static aesthetics over functional utility.

Nearly every time I see someone talking about "design" in the realm of user interfaces, or about making software "beautiful", they're invariably attempting to use concepts applicable to media intended for the presentation of information to a viewer in the context of an interface intended to facilitate dynamic interaction between a functional tool and the user, and it always seems to make the software more limited, less productive, and more frustrating to use.

A user interface is about exposing software functionality and enabling users to maximize their efficient use of their tools. Optimizing a UI to look good in a screenshot means not optimizing the UI to provide efficient access to the functionality of the application, and not optimizing the flexibility of the application for users to adapt it to their own priorities and work styles.

This trend of attempting to exercise top-down control over user experience needs to end, and software developers need to start paying attention to what users are actually trying to do with the products they build, instead of deferring to inappropriately-applied theoretical models offered by visual designers.

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