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India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

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Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#131

Post by grannyg00se »

ordinary wrote: post #55
grannyg00se wrote: post #27

Why don't we hear this more often? I often hear stores about people traveling to India but I've never heard of this level of incessant public abuse. And what about the people who were warning her to dress conservatively and not make eye contact? Did they know the extent of the abuse she was about to endure? Did they deliberately downplay it for some reason? Or did she experience unusually horrific treatment because o…

There has been a deluge of news reports about Indian rape culture during the past few months. If you haven't noticed, you haven't been paying attention. See, for several horrible examples: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/india-bus-gang-rape...

I've heard those reports but I thought it was typical media sensationalism. A bad string of isolated cases overplayed perhaps.

When you talk about traveling you usually hear that kind of story from people. Don't go to [large country] because people get kidnapped there. Well, often it turns out there's one small section of one city in the entire country where that kind of news comes from.

Judging from this woman's story, she went through a multi city trip experiencing the same intense culturally acceptable public abuse everywhere she went. That's extremely different than random occasional problems. And why the fuck would the University of Chicago send her into that shit?!

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#132

Post by rdtsc »

It was upsetting reading that. I know they are shit places in the world. But reading this made if feel personal. It is hard to imagine how human dignity and lives can be insignificant. But in some places there are. You can get trampled to death easily, you can fall down and have a heart attack and the crowd will just jump over your body and continue on walking. Some will bend down and sift through you pocket as you lay unconscious.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#133

Post by dfc »

rm999 wrote: post #100
chunky1994 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think O.P was conflating two issues there, one about patriarchy in India being very traditional, two about misogyny (apparently) being rampant. I for one don't expect anyone to be okay with misogyny, whether it be cultural or not, and I presume all the other Indians here feel the same way.

Yes you are entirely correct, I mixed up those concepts when I was writing my comment. I meant to highlight the cultural patriarchy and distance myself from the misogyny ("I won't defend this"). I do think much of the misogyny in India stems from their patriarchal values, but misogyny is a social issue rather than a cultural concept. I doubt many Indian women are cool with misogyny...

Social issue versus cultural concept

This is a new distinction (and somewhat confusing) for me. What is the difference between a social issue and a cultural concept?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#134

Post by dsuth »

dxbydt wrote: post #56
supergauntlet wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me hate other Indians though. Admit there's a problem, and work to fix it. Don't just brush it to the side and pretend it's not a big deal if you ignore it. All that's doing is putting a bandage on an open sore which is going to fester and make it harder to fix down the line.

> Admit there's a problem, and work to fix it. You must be crazy. Its not like you do git pull india --rebase and everything's hunky dory from then on. Its 1.2 billion people. Beyond a certain threshold, systems are essentially unfixable. India has crossed that threshold a long, long time ago. You'd have a better chance if you just ran away & started a new community elsewhere - which is why there are little-indias ev…

> Beyond a certain threshold, systems are essentially unfixable.

What a sad belief to hold, especially in the light of agents of such great change as Gandhi, Rosa Parks etc. Any system can be changed with the right impetus, although that's unlikely to happen soon in India. But things can't keep going as they are in the long run, it's just not a sustainable pattern for dense urban environments.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#135

Post by godzilla82 »

grdvnl wrote: post #120
kamaal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, If you had a bad experience in our country. Most people stare basically out of uncontrolled curiosity. In fact you get similar stares if you were to look differently than we do like for example say Chinese, African etc. This isn't just limited to white individuals but anybody in general. Situation in many parts of Bangalore is better. The solution to this problem is to let both our cultures mingle more, than j…

To add to your comment: Even Indians who grow up in cities get the same kind of stares when they visit villages. As an young child every year when my siblings and I visit a tiny village where my parents grew up, there are always people who live around the neighborhood peeping through our doors to see who has arrived and what we were up to. Even when we walk in the muddy roads or ride in an ox-cart to visit the farms,…

>This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). How is it good? Btw just because a lot of people practice a gross behavior doesn't make it part of the culture. I hate it when people give excuses for behavior by saying it is "cultural". By the same logic, Bride burning, dowry and female foeticide is also practiced, Do you also consider it a part of the culture?

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#136

Post by rdtsc »

devindotcom wrote: post #13

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doin…

> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density

I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it. If that is is the culture (I imagine it is just "culture" in poor and uneducated parts, much like it would be in a trailer park in Mississippi perhaps) well then fuck that culture it is wrong.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#137

Post by thelukester »

rdtsc wrote: post #136
devindotcom wrote: post #13

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doin…

> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it.…

I've traveled all over the world, from South America, India, to China. In all those places, the locals stare and take photos. They stare at me, also a redhead; they stare at my girlfriend, who is from LA and dresses like it. Unlike this sheltered author, when the kids take photos of us, the white ghosts, faragn, or gringos, we don't assume they're going to use it for porn. We're often the only white couple in the town. Sometimes they've never seen white people. It's what they do.

When my gf was alone in India, she had guys come on to her a few times, but she said it was nothing compared to the aggressive behavior we encountered in Columbia and Cambodia.

People like Rose Chasm, should stay in their small American towns. Someone with such vivid imagination and fragile psyche has no business traveling in 3rd world countries.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#139

Post by devindotcom »

rdtsc wrote: post #136
devindotcom wrote: post #13

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doin…

> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it.…

You may have stopped reading my comment a little early, as it echoes your sentiments exactly after the portion you quote.

Re: India: the Story You Never Wanted to Hear

#140

Post by PencilAndPaper »

I was only in India for a month and I am not joking or exaggerating that the constant threat of sexual violence also gave me what people could call PTSD.

Even making eye contact with men was perceived as an invitation. I could do nothing right. I tried adopting local garb, covering, being a shadow basically. I wasnt even alone; I was with my boyfriend the whole time!

I dont know how to talk to people about my experiences there without sounding like a complete grump. I would never have been able to imagine how brutal India was for everyone, including women, without going. Thank goodness I could leave!

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