Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#131

Post by jodrellblank » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:41 PM UTC

Jem wrote: post #53

jodrellblank wrote: post #52

When you go online and want to learn programming, you run into the uncool assholes. The ones who’ll take "How to I make a web site that people can join" not as an admission of some guy who doesn’t care about the details but as a sign of weakness. I’ve seen responses to that question that range from "You obviously aren’t ready" to "It depends on how you want the site to scale." What bullshit! No no no. That's me, but…

Or, in the case of someone who asked me that exact question recently, what they really want is for you to provide them with code for free.

They can have the code for free - Joomla, for instance or Drupal, that's not the issue, it's something deeper than that.

I wouldn't go to an exotic plant center and ask how to grow a sequoia tree and when they ask if I have any gardening experience, say no. Have any tools? No. Have anywhere to grow one? No. Do I want to read a book on them? No. I don't want to go through all this growing a tree bullshit, I just want to grow a sequoia tree! It'll need a lot of space. Don't give me this scaling crap. It'll need a tropical soil makeup. I don't care about soil chemistry you nerd, I just want to grow a big tree!

If I wanted to jump into a big project, why not? I'd research to find out where they normally grow, where seeds for unusual plants can be obtained, how to germinate and care for similar (tree, tropical, whatever) seeds and what kinds of soils and watering they might require, and arrange a big space to grow it in - then I'd contact someone appropriate and describe my plan, make it clear I was determined and ask for their advice.

I'm having trouble putting my finger on what's annoying me, it's not the request for free code - you can have it. It's not the asking for help - I'll help when I can (if I'm interested).

There's something about the questioner being unwilling to help themselves. Not a lack of understanding about a topic, but a lack of understanding about understanding in general. A kind of feeling that some people think things are literally magic, not just a chain of connections that anyone learn about and manipulate.

It's probably because I'm a nerd who likes details (in areas I'm interested in, at least), but it's puzzling.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#132

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:42 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #117

endlessvoid94 wrote: post #60

Most (not all) of the responses here seem to absolutely confirm this essay's main points. The posters here generally are taking some kind of offense to this, and feel the need to shoot it full of holes. In the meantime, this behavior is only reinforcing the point to anyone who happens to not be a programmer. It's actually quite striking.

If someone came on here and said something blatantly false such as "Gravity doesn't exist. Here's a bunch of technobabble explaining why it doesn't. Anyone who doesn't agree is a douche and part of the conspiracy to hide the truth." Would the multitudes of people coming to refute his points confirm his point that there is a conspiracy to hide the truth? Or would it mean that he just may be wrong.

Bullshit. Gravity is a provable part of science. The social sciences are harder to deal with. Meanwhile, you want proof? I'll offer myself and every single person I know who's willing to be social as proof. I'm friends with guys with weird hair and glasses who use Digg and they were an accepted part of high school because they didn't go out of their way to be exclusive and closed-off. When I decided to stop being a dick to people just to preempt their disliking me, I found out that I was rarely disliked. (In fact, I went to a further extreme, because I'm quick to call people out for saying stupid things and I like colorful insults, and yet people didn't mind so much as I continued to get along with them.)

Show me the person who makes an active attempt to stop being hated - not by being "cool" but by starting to act friendly towards people - and fails after a few weeks' effort and I'll consider your experiment a potential refutation.

Would the multitudes of people coming to refute his points confirm his point that there is a conspiracy to hide the truth?

I said "Nerds are in denial" and a lot of people jumped on board to deny it. I'm not saying that proves it either way, because I don't presume to judge people by their comments online, but it's not exactly evidence of my wrongdoing.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#133

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:44 PM UTC

patcito wrote: post #130

rorymarinich wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! Of course it's not okay to hurt somebody. If I made it sound like that I fucked up big-time. What I said was that it's the attitude above that leads to physical violence. When somebody starts wanting to punch somebody in the face, it comes from that particular level of dickery. I am not at all a violent person. I don't fight people, I don't hit people. I don't have a personality that leads to fights. The closest…

> You obviously knew that would happen and you went on doing it anyway, so you fit into the category of people I'm talking about here. Or maybe he just doesn't care what people think on this matter.

If he didn't care, he wouldn't have gone out of his way to make a blog theme that screamed "Obnoxious asshole" and then gone on to rant about things that got him called an obnoxious asshole. I'm not saying that those two things make him an obnoxious asshole, but then, Zed never once assumed the attitude of "I can't believe people are calling me an obnoxious asshole." I'm certain he didn't care that they were, and so in his mind it's totally okay.

If he complained about people not calling him sensitive with that logo of his, then I'd call him out for being a hypocrite. That's what I'm doing with nerds: I think that nerds go out of their way to be disliked and then complain that nobody likes them.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#134

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:48 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #131

Jem wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, in the case of someone who asked me that exact question recently, what they really want is for you to provide them with code for free.

They can have the code for free - Joomla, for instance or Drupal, that's not the issue, it's something deeper than that. I wouldn't go to an exotic plant center and ask how to grow a sequoia tree and when they ask if I have any gardening experience, say no. Have any tools? No. Have anywhere to grow one? No. Do I want to read a book on them? No. I don't want to go through all this growing a tree bullshit, I just want…

I was actually going to mention Drupal, because it's what I've spent a good five years playing around with. I love it.

There's something about the questioner being unwilling to help themselves. Not a lack of understanding about a topic, but a lack of understanding about understanding in general. A kind of feeling that some people think things are literally magic, not just a chain of connections that anyone learn about and manipulate.

That's not the vibe I get from a lot of the more arrogant types. If somebody asks "How do I make a custom forum" and somebody says "Well, you're going to need to know a lot of things, so if you don't know X Y and Z it's going to take you a lot of learning", that makes a lot of sense, agreed. But the attitude that comes off of a lot of programmers is "Yeah, you can't, don't bother," and I feel that hurts a lot of curious-but-ignorant people.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#135

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:49 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #110

rorymarinich wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been invited to meet people I respect deeply because they liked some of the stuff I did. One of my close friends opened for Kimya Dawson; another friend of mine won a national poetry award. I find that the people I know who have succeeded are the people who don't doubt for an instant that people want them to succeed, and I have seen no reason to doubt that. The sorts of people who are bitter enough to push down…

> I find that the people I know who have succeeded are the people who don't doubt for an instant that people want them to succeed This is not the same as "Everyone who attempts to climb the social ladder succeeds", what you are saying here is more like "Everyone who succeeds at climbing the social ladder attempts it". The latter is true, the former is what I objected to. You are ignoring the people who attempted and…

We could have a whole lengthy discussion about this, but I still disagree. I think that success is easy enough that somebody who's willing to try and try again will succeed sooner rather than later.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#136

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 7:59 PM UTC

Psyonic wrote: post #119

rorymarinich wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I find the notion that "I define myself as a programmer" offensive. Programming is something I do, and I do it reasonably well, but at the end of the day it's only one of many things I do, and it's certainly not "who I am." I agree. As I say, that's the sort of programmer I tend to like. The problem is, that's not the sort that aspiring programmers run into when they're first learning. I joined my first co…

I don't see what's so bad about identifying with your work. Would you be equally bothered by a doctor who considers himself a doctor, as opposed to saying "I do practice medicine, but that's only one of many things I do, and certainly not who I am?" Identification with profession is as old as time (last names anyone?) and often indicates someone who is passionate about their work.

Perhaps it's that I think the vast majority of programmers are doing meaningless work, and so their use of the term has diluted what the word means for me. But then, I'd pick the term "designer" which some people think is just as meaningless.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#137

Post by chairface » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 8:30 PM UTC

rorymarinich wrote: post #128

chairface wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that you're the reason I wrote this article, right? This is exactly the attitude that made me freeze my main account away. People who take things that other people say and extend them to drastic proportions just so they can be dicks about it. Look man, you said you had a solution to the problem. What I said is hardly a leap. You have a funny definition of "drastic proportions". > But no, you won't address…

Look man, you said you had a solution to the problem. What I said is hardly a leap. You have a funny definition of "drastic proportions". I use hyperbole. I ought to have said "proposed" solution. Either way, your response was snide and still hasn't addressed what I said in that point. I think that what I proposed would help the two sides understand each other in a way they don't know, and in my experience the more p…

> Either way, your response was snide and still hasn't addressed what I said in that point.

Well, for what it's worth, I wasn't trying to be snide. If the problem was solved, it really would be egalitarian bliss. I really don't know how this could be taken as "dickery".

My response to your proposed solution, if you're interested, is that it's unworkable. I actually skipped most of it my first time through, because the first thing you said about it was "First, get the other kids to realize why nerd things are cool" with no explanation as to how this could possibly be done. Convince me that you can dictate what is cool and what is not on a large scale, and then I'll give some weight to your plan.

See, even now, my talking about this comes off as confrontational, to no effect. I still think it was better for the original conversation to leave it out.

> You've stood out to me as one of the people who's most deliberately ignoring the things that I'm saying

Have I ignored something else that annoys you?

> By that standard I'm blaming the nerds for deliberately setting up a situation wherein they're persecuted, when they could easily avoid the entire situation by not being so deliberately hostile. Does that work?

Sure. The way it's written, it seems like you are referring to all nerds, but I will assume that this is not the case.

Anyway, apology accepted.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#138

Post by rorymarinich » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 8:35 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #137

rorymarinich wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look man, you said you had a solution to the problem. What I said is hardly a leap. You have a funny definition of "drastic proportions". I use hyperbole. I ought to have said "proposed" solution. Either way, your response was snide and still hasn't addressed what I said in that point. I think that what I proposed would help the two sides understand each other in a way they don't know, and in my experience the more p…

> Either way, your response was snide and still hasn't addressed what I said in that point. Well, for what it's worth, I wasn't trying to be snide. If the problem was solved, it really would be egalitarian bliss. I really don't know how this could be taken as "dickery". My response to your proposed solution, if you're interested, is that it's unworkable. I actually skipped most of it my first time through, because th…

See, even now, my talking about this comes off as confrontational, to no effect. I still think it was better for the original conversation to leave it out.

Nah, that's a completely sensible point. I don't think it's hard to make programming seem cool, though: there are some very awesome things that've been made. WeFeelFine comes to mind. Talk about how something beautiful like that was made and it'll at least make people realize more that programmers can be artists, too. (Not the best example, but it's what first comes to mind.)

Have I ignored something else that annoys you?

Nope.

Sure. The way it's written, it seems like you are referring to all nerds, but I will assume that this is not the case.

Yeah. I could revise this, but I don't think it would be worth it. It wasn't a major piece of writing, in any event.

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#139

Post by dkarl » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 8:37 PM UTC

chairface wrote: post #125

dkarl wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's silly of you to say it's "much more helpful" to "focus more on what is _done_ to the unpopular" when we've all been over that ad nauseam. Everybody knows it's bad to be mean to people. There's nothing to be learned from it. Plus, it's somebody else's pathology, not ours. Since we already understand it and can't directly fix it, the only possible effect of us dwelling on it is to distance ourselves from r…

> I think it's silly of you to say it's "much more helpful" to "focus more on what is _done_ to the unpopular" when we've all been over that ad nauseam. When I say it's more helpful to focus on what is done to the unpopular, I am speaking as a parent and an authority figure. And in that position, that focus is well within my locus of control, when it comes to children under my charge. I should have made it more clear…

Whoops, I didn't even think about seeing the discussion from that point of view, probably because I'm never in a position of authority over children. It's interesting to note that nobody else here discusses the role of authority figures. It certainly never crossed my mind that parents and teachers were even relevant to the discussion. In my experience, adults were pretty much ignored because they either morally condemned all social jockeying and exclusion (when lecturing the bullies) or dismissed it as meaningless (when comforting the victims.)

My gut reaction to you, as a parent, taking part in this discussion is that people put in a position of authority over children seem to instinctively start denying their own human weaknesses. I'm interested to hear what you would say about that. When it comes to social bullying and exclusion, in my experience, adults never acknowledged that we were going through a difficult process of learning adult behaviors. Implicitly, they pretended that there was no grown-up way to do what we were doing, because social divisions and inequalities did not exist in the adult world.

I think we could have regarded adults as valuable sources of coaching if they had just been honest instead of trying to be perfect, inhumanly pure role models. You know, even socially dominant teenagers are clumsy and self-conscious. They would probably appreciate some tips on how to enforce social boundaries without being jerks about it. That would benefit everyone. As a parent, could you even do such a thing, or would it compromise your authority too much to admit that adults do the same things that teenagers do, only much more subtly and gracefully?

Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)

#140

Post by Jem » Tue, Apr 28, 2009, 8:44 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #131

Jem wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, in the case of someone who asked me that exact question recently, what they really want is for you to provide them with code for free.

They can have the code for free - Joomla, for instance or Drupal, that's not the issue, it's something deeper than that. I wouldn't go to an exotic plant center and ask how to grow a sequoia tree and when they ask if I have any gardening experience, say no. Have any tools? No. Have anywhere to grow one? No. Do I want to read a book on them? No. I don't want to go through all this growing a tree bullshit, I just want…

> There's something about the questioner being unwilling to help themselves.

Exactly. I run a tutorial site for younger webmasters so I get a lot of requests for help. I wouldn't do it if I objected (although it's far too out of date now) but there's a huge difference between someone who's been on my site, searched on Google, constructed some code that they think is on the right lines and struck a wall, and then someone who has thought "hmm, she codes, I'll just get her to do it".