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Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

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Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#131

Post by jaredsohn »

joonix wrote: post #106
briholt wrote: post #8

I'd take the opposite approach: be glad when applicants send such poor cover letters because it immediately lets you know you should NOT waste your time on them. Some one who would send such a bad boilerplate cover letter is lazy for not sending an actual letter, technically inept for sending links to a private LinkedIn profile, and has a poor theory of mind regarding what an employer would like to see. This especial…

Cover letters are useless. Really, try to have some empathy for people trying to get jobs in a tough market (I guess this doesn't apply to the currently employed or developers...). You have to apply to a LOT of stuff, and employers almost never give the courtesy of a confirmation or any sort of response/rejection. It takes a LOT of time to put contact info into Word, change around your cover letter template, save, an…

>It takes a LOT of time to put contact info into Word, change around your cover letter template, save, and attach.

Why are people writing their cover letters in Word? Unless it is specifically stated otherwise, the cover letter should be in the body of the email. (http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/coverletters/qt/emailcover.htm)

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#132

Post by lawnchair_larry »

mootothemax wrote: post #129
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I discard any employer that requires a cover letter. Cover letters don't tell you anything. If you think they do, you don't know how most people write them, and you probably miss a lot of good candidates. It's an unreasonable demand. You're not the only place that I am applying. Either I send all fifteen of you a generic cover letter (which is likely no better than not sending one), or I customize it for each of you,…

You're doing it wrong. I just want a quick note explaining briefly who you are and why you're applying. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. Seriously, try hiring someone, the influx of irrelevant applicants and those who won't take even thirty seconds to read your ad is truly dispiriting. If you make even the tiniest effort with your application, you will stand out, guaranteed.

I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring. It's certainly not more information than is on my resume. The thought of a cover letter that exhaustive is a little bit crazy, frankly.

If it sounds like I'm complaining, it's not because I'm frustrated, but because it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded. In my experience, their internal recruiters monitoring inbounds are usually ringing me before my finger is even off the send button. They don't seem to look for or care about a cover letter, and I haven't had trouble getting offers, even from top tier companies. And honestly, I don't even think I'm that impressive. From what I can tell, anyone who has fogged a mirror at a half-respectable tech company already will at least get a phone screen these days.

When I was previously involved in hiring, I don't recall ever seeing cover letters on inbounds either. When asked in person by potential candidates, I always told them not to.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#133

Post by lessnonymous »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #132
mootothemax wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're doing it wrong. I just want a quick note explaining briefly who you are and why you're applying. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. Seriously, try hiring someone, the influx of irrelevant applicants and those who won't take even thirty seconds to read your ad is truly dispiriting. If you make even the tiniest effort with your application, you will stand out, guaranteed.

I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring. It's certainly not more information than is on my resume. The thought of a cover letter that exhaustive is a little bit crazy, frankly. If it sounds like I'm complaining, it's not because I'm frustrated, but because it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded. In my exp…

I didn't ask for more information. What you decide to tell me in your cover letter is way more interesting than your exhaustive list of every piece of software you've ever used.

I'm not a recruiter who throws resumes at a text processor and sends through useless people to the employer because of some random keyword. I'm the employer who's looking for quality people who are interesting.

In judging that, your resume is fairly useless compared to a cover letter.

I've applied for about two dozen jobs in my life. I have about a 33% success rate getting an interview and have got the job at every interview but one. Having now been a hiring manager for the past five years, I believe that's down to the fact that I don't just pump out bland useless resumes to people. (And I avoid recruiters!)

TL;DR; Here's my advice: If you're applying to a large corporation or via a recruiter, the cover letter is probably useless. But if you're applying directly (or to a HN post!) then spend a few minutes explaining yourself.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#134

Post by mootothemax »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #132
mootothemax wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're doing it wrong. I just want a quick note explaining briefly who you are and why you're applying. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. Seriously, try hiring someone, the influx of irrelevant applicants and those who won't take even thirty seconds to read your ad is truly dispiriting. If you make even the tiniest effort with your application, you will stand out, guaranteed.

I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring. It's certainly not more information than is on my resume. The thought of a cover letter that exhaustive is a little bit crazy, frankly. If it sounds like I'm complaining, it's not because I'm frustrated, but because it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded. In my exp…

I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring.

You and I may disagree on this point then; I consider what you describe to be a cover letter.

In my experience, their internal recruiters monitoring inbounds are usually ringing me before my finger is even off the send button.

Honestly, I think you include more than you're letting on. Whether it's a short sentence in your application email, something tailored in your CV, or a short cover letter - basically, stuff you think is unimportant because it takes you 30 seconds to do, for maybe a grand total of a few minutes per application, and so you assume that other people are also doing this.

I think that the sheer number of people who make zero effort means that even small stuff like including the person's name, if listed, at the top of the email really does make a difference.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#135

Post by 4nil »

Where does one draw the line? How is one guaranteed on the ROI of drafting a good response.. I used to go the extra mile, spend time writing a good cover letter, personalizing my resume for the job and most of the time I did not even get a response.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#137

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tzaman wrote: post #41
calinet6 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rockstars are a myth. So are low-level engineers who "know what they're doing." Hire smart people who can learn new things instead of resume bullet points and/or mythological creatures.

> Rockstars are a myth No they are not. One would think it's easy to find smart people who can learn new things , but I've dealt with both young and senior developers (by senior I mean writing code 15+ years) and was amazed how most of them feel comfortable being completely ignorant of new technologies/libraries/frameworks/best practices/whatever. I've met a rockstar the other day, and could feel him being the one I'…

When you say new technologies, do you mean actual technological inventions or innovations, or just the latest trending web framework to spawn a fad of conferences?

Because, yes, I'm relatively comfortable not caring about technologies that will return to complete obscurity within 6-18 months.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#138

Post by Ovid »

Completely agreed. I'm trying to hire software developers who are willing move to Amsterdam (at the company's expense, complete with work permit!), and respondents show all the enthusiasm of a dead fish. The company I represent repeatedly rejects candidates who don't seem excited about the opportunity and if they saw these original emails, they'd reject many of the candidates out of hand.

Instead, we work with the candidates to coach them on how to present themselves to a company and how to improve their CV/resume. As it turns out, most of our applicants are excited about the opportunity, but they've never been taught the basics of how to hunt for a job. I'm not sure why that is. Are programming jobs always so plentiful that people assume no effort is required? (Actually, that is sort of true. I came to programming after a decade of mostly service jobs and I'm inundated with recruiters without even trying, but I still remember my days of living on pot pies and ramen, so I put effort into applying).

TL;DR: many people dream of living and working in Europe and I'm handing them the opportunity on a silver platter, and I still get the "here's my CV" three-word emails.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#139

Post by mryan »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #132
mootothemax wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're doing it wrong. I just want a quick note explaining briefly who you are and why you're applying. It shouldn't take more than five minutes. Seriously, try hiring someone, the influx of irrelevant applicants and those who won't take even thirty seconds to read your ad is truly dispiriting. If you make even the tiniest effort with your application, you will stand out, guaranteed.

I dont think I'm doing it wrong. I do what you say, a quick note. Maybe two sentences. That's not a cover letter though, like GP is requiring. It's certainly not more information than is on my resume. The thought of a cover letter that exhaustive is a little bit crazy, frankly. If it sounds like I'm complaining, it's not because I'm frustrated, but because it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded. In my exp…

> it's slightly offensive to see that being demanded.

Interesting - I don't see this as an offensive request at all. As I see it... the company is looking for a new employee who best matches their ideal description. A cover letter merely gives you another opportunity to demonstrate your suitability for the position, in a format that is more personal than a CV.

When I made "writing targeted cover letters for each role" part of my application procedure my success rate increased dramatically. I know there are specific instances where I got asked for an interview based mostly on my cover letter, and not on my CV.

I guess different parts of the industry have differing expectations in this regard.

Re: Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders

#140

Post by rwg »

niclupien wrote: post #105

I've applied to many positions (internships) advertised in these threads with a lot of effort to craft each email for each of them. I don't speak english so often so it took me a very great amount of effort to do this. Got only 1 reply, the others didn't even bother saying "Thanks for applying" or anything. I don't know if this behavior is normal but I would expect a bit more from hirers advertising on HN. Especially…

I don't think that's an "HN employers" thing as much as an industry thing.

I've been unemployed for nine months, though I've only been seriously applying for jobs in the past three. (I consider the first six months a well-deserved vacation. Employers apparently consider it the mark of the unemployable. C'est la vie.) I've received exactly zero (0) replies to job applications that weren't automated "we got your application" e-mails. Even at a company where my CV was handed directly to a manager by a friend who worked there, the manager stopped communicating with me after his initial "we'd like to set up a time to talk to you" e-mail.

I completely understand that employers get bombarded with applications for every single position they post. (When our department posted a [low paying] Linux sysadmin position, we received over 100 applications, of which maybe 25 had anything to indicate that the applicant had ever used a computer, let alone Linux.) But a simple "thanks but we're not interested" e-mail would certainly be nice when you've been eliminated as a candidate for a job...or were never actually a candidate to begin with.

The silence of the job search quickly becomes deafening.

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