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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#131

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

Demonspawn wrote: post #97
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a case of how fragile they are, it how much they have been, and still are, disadvantaged by the way society is structured. Things have improved in recent years but look at average salaries, representation in government, representation at senior levels in companies and so on and tell me that it's all sorted. And if women aren't being fairly represented at the top (unless you're saying that there have in histo…

Women are fairly represented at the top and at the bottom. They are mostly missing from both ends of the spectrum. If you understood about the differences in expression between males and females (it's not just humans that follow these trends) then you would recognize that while men tend towards greatness and failure, women tend to be average. Mother nature was too smart to waste reproductive potential on environment…

So your answer: women, know your place.

Can you cite research from reputable journals to support this? And are the measures of whatever the hell it is you're measuring that says women are extraordinary aren't biased in terms of the way society sees the sexes (that is measuring what has been deemed historically useful based on a male perspective) and are judging genuine ability in things that matter, not just one easily measurable thing.

I only ask because rankable measures of ability of the sort you're talking about are generally consider bullshit these days.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#132

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

johngalt wrote: post #95

Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?

No, you need to go back a bit.

First set up a society that massively favours women for a few millennia, seeing men primarily in terms of sex and procreation, THEN do your experiment, ensuring that there are still a good few people around who still see the world in that way and are happy to both express that view and use it to guide their actions.

Otherwise you're only doing the very, very end bit.

Seriously, you can't just flip the genders, there's a mass of context that ignores. The point is not that everyone is malicious and see the world this way, just that there are many people who do. That means that, while it's often not how the comments are intended by the person saying them, it's an entirely reasonable way to believe that they're intended.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#133

Post by profoak »

mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Why are you apologizing. She is an asshole who cost you your job. I really hope you are just doing it for potential employers in the future.

Adria is a shitty person for getting you fired over this.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#134

Post by Demonspawn »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #131
Demonspawn wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are fairly represented at the top and at the bottom. They are mostly missing from both ends of the spectrum. If you understood about the differences in expression between males and females (it's not just humans that follow these trends) then you would recognize that while men tend towards greatness and failure, women tend to be average. Mother nature was too smart to waste reproductive potential on environment…

So your answer: women, know your place. Can you cite research from reputable journals to support this? And are the measures of whatever the hell it is you're measuring that says women are extraordinary aren't biased in terms of the way society sees the sexes (that is measuring what has been deemed historically useful based on a male perspective) and are judging genuine ability in things that matter, not just one easi…

Height, weight, IQ, Bone Density, math ability.... you name a quantifiable human trait, men are more diverse than women.

And I didn't say anything about women should "know their place"... it's just biological reality that the top and the bottom are male dominated. As such, you can't expect proportional representation at the extremes of expression.

And to only look at the good end and attempt to create proportional representation there is an anti-male practice.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#135

Post by llimllib »

an-tarek wrote: post #72
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

> In common law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false

The person involved in this case does not deny the claim.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#136

Post by thisone »

alukima wrote: post #127

My first reaction to this was that she was being overly sensitive. As several others pointed out she admits that she played Cards Against Humanity while at the conference and obviously that seems far more offensive to most than dongles and forking. Any girl that works in a place with a highly skewed male to female ratio has to have a cut off. While working at a game company I let little jokes like this slide because…

From my experience, there can be a lot of one-ups-manship in the office. Between men or between women.

If your environment has this type of atmosphere, it probably will escalate until you make it known where your line is.

I don't think it's a problem to make your line known. People, men and women, interact with others differently. Some of my coworkers are massive flirts for example, I'm not.

Their line is different from mine, and that's okay as long as we respect each other.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#137

Post by Samihah »

zshprompt wrote: post #10

Its a tough call, but I will say that it is not clear who the bully is in this situation. If the comments were made directly at someone, I am sure all will agree that this is grounds for consequences. However is it really a "safe space" if people are shamed publicly for what someone finds offensive BEFORE the matter is brought up to STAFF? I mean the two dudes in the photo may have grounds to say that they are the on…

A PROFESSIONAL tech conference is not the time nor place to make lewd inappropriate jokes. Save that for golf outings with your former frat bros..

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#138

Post by johngalt »

antihero wrote: post #119
johngalt wrote: post #95

Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?

Reversing the genders doesn't really work because they come from an unequal footing in the first place. Of course, if you reversed all of history and they were female dominated events with a long history of intimidating an harassing males, perhaps the test would stand up. That said, this woman's behaviour is a massive overreaction and exceptionally irresponsible, and has led to something horrible happening. If I were…

What other kind of behaviors would you find unacceptable for a man but not a woman? Do you consider yourself a sexist?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#139

Post by _5gtv »

johngalt wrote: post #95

Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?

I made the same point last night... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398602

I doubt there would have been a response.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#140

Post by johngalt »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #132
johngalt wrote: post #95

Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?

No, you need to go back a bit. First set up a society that massively favours women for a few millennia, seeing men primarily in terms of sex and procreation, THEN do your experiment, ensuring that there are still a good few people around who still see the world in that way and are happy to both express that view and use it to guide their actions. Otherwise you're only doing the very, very end bit. Seriously, you can'…

Does history allow women to be given 20% more latitude than a man? 50%? Is there any harassing behavior that would be unacceptable coming from a woman? How much worse would it have to be?
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