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The Apprentice Programmer

tobi.lutke.com

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Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#131

Post by pkolaczk »

lsc wrote: post #110
necubi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't learn to code in college, or at least not in class. Good coders almost universally learn outside the classroom. This is true for people who go to college and those that forgo it. So if you don't go to college to learn to code, why go at all? You go to learn the fundamentals of computer science and math which underlie everything that we do. It's certainly possible to obtain this knowledge on your own with se…

>It's certainly possible to obtain this knowledge on your own with serious self-study. But it's a hard route (albeit one getting easier thanks to Coursera et al.) Now, what little math and theory I have learned, well, really, what anything I've learned... I've found that it's dramatically easier to learn from books than from a lecture. First, people talking? really, really slow. I ain't no speed-reader, but I can man…

"relational databases are incredibly easy to tune and improve"... only as long as they are on a single beefy server. When it is not enough, and very often it is not enough, things start to become very hairy up to the point where you have to rewrite your application using a proper NoSQL solution and with some people who understand databases a little better than "See ma, I put SQL here and it automagically evaluates..."

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#132

Post by keithpeter »

bromang wrote: post #84
keithpeter wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. In the UK we are trying to reconstruct the 'dual system' and we have things that are called apprenticeships but not quite as well organised as the ones they have in Germany. The OP is not a drop-out. He has followed an established path!

the UK system is an extremely poor version of the German system. To implement an apprenticeship model, the state HAS to take direct control over the hiring of almost all entry level employees. otherwise the incentives and work culture is simply not in place for a large number of meaningful training opportunities to exist.

Er, no, we need to rebuild some kind of manufacturing sector first! Then make sure companies have their own apprenticeship schemes (proper ones not the shelf stacking ones)

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#133

Post by sebastianmarr »

I also live in Germany and am currently writing the thesis for my masters degree in CS. In my case, I wished I left college after getting my bachelor. I had a solid foundation of theoretical CS knowledge after 3 years. I continued to study only because I wanted the degree, in case I "need" it later to get a job.

For over a year now I didn't see any lectures, but have been working at a company instead. I had all my exams, the only thing I have left to do is my thesis. It's hard motivating yourself to do scientific work if you know you can get by just fine without it. And all just for a degree that doesn't matter (to me at least).

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#134

Post by prawks »

ismarc wrote: post #54
dxbydt wrote: post #38

I simply do not understand this anti-college anti-credentialling sentiment. I am featured in the latest Hacker Monthly ( print version of HN). So they asked me for a bio. I wrote something about how I learnt everything in college...am not a hacker...and that you should go to grad school if you want to get better at CS. So they edited out all of the pro-college stuff and just said this guy is data scientist. You don't…

I'm of two minds of this. 1) I'm very much NOT anti-college/anti-credentialing. 2) I don't see your average business application software developer having any need for a degree in CS. I believe the anti-college/anti-credentialing stance is primarily how people are sold on degrees. People are told they will get better jobs and make more money if they get one. However, no one really takes the time to tell them that jus…

> Essentially, people have been oversold on what the degree actually gives them.

The degree certificate itself, perhaps. But I think people also miss what can come along while getting the degree. Networking with senior faculty members. Participating in undergraduate research. Independent classes with those faculty members. Networking with peers of similar interests.

It's what the student makes it. As such, you're quite right that just "getting a degree" doesn't make you qualified for anything aside from being a degree holder. I think it's important to keep this in mind when discussing undergraduate degrees.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#135

Post by fallous »

In the US a model akin to this exists in certain trades, such as sheet metal workers, plumbers, etc. The trade unions essentially act as guilds (rather than the more worker vs company model of UAW and the like) that sponsor apprentice programs. The apprentice has to obtain instruction at a trade school for basic skills and then apprentices through the union for an employer or employers. The unions have their own insurance plans that the members pay for themselves, and in essence the group of workers are "contracted" to the companies.

In order for something like this to extend to programming, you'd need someone to establish such a guild structure and trade training capacity.

Whether such a thing ever occurs is doubtful in my mind due to the established interests of those who are already credentialed and in the workplace. Much as becoming a lawyer was once a matter of simply passing the bar (no Juris Doctorate was required) but now has erected barriers built by the ABA to protect its membership, I suspect that there would be resistance by established tech workers and managers. (as an amusing aside, the state of Washington actually still has an apprenticeship program for lawyers but due to the ABA those apprentices can only practice in the state of Washington and will not receive reciprocity with regards to taking and passing the bar in any other state.)

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#136

Post by sethrin »

kostya-kow wrote: post #47
ahoyhere wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a bias if you look at dropouts as a homogeneous group, because they aren't. It's just as ludicrous to predict the same outcome for someone like me, who was always way ahead and bored to death of school, and a poor kid from the city or country who couldn't read at grade level. I doubt Tobi ever had reading comprehension problems and I bet he was passionate about his hobby leading up to his track switch. A…

I completely agree with you. You expressed exactly what I was thinking. I am 15, and I am planning to drop out of school. It is extremely frustrating trying to persuade my parents that dropping out of school doesn't mean I am giving up on life, and that I am not a failure. I cannot function in this artificial society that exists in schools, and I learn much better by myself. Finishing school would be complete waste o…

So keep in mind that there are two sides to this: the beaten path is boring and frivolous because it's easy. The unbeaten path is hard, if for no other reason than because it's uncommonly trod. If you are finding it difficult to deal with other people's expectations of you now, you should probably not expect that to change immediately.

Learning is obviously not the point in any of this, so try to evaluate your situation without taking it into account. You're being asked to tolerate some awful people and jump through stupid hoops. Probably not for the last time.

I've been in this situation, whatever you choose will probably not matter as much as you think it will. This is much more dramatic and momentous to you now than it will be in ten years. You will get over your high school experience, whatever that is.

I've also, in an unrelated matter, been homeless. Try not to have to worry about where/when/how you're going to eat/sleep/bathe next. It's not the most fun or productive thing you could be doing. I do recommend being thankful that you live somewhere where this is remotely an option: being homeless in, e.g. Alaska would tend to be fatal. If you have any, go live with your relatives for a while. Just being in a different place can make a lot of difference.

The essential problem of your situation is that you're wanting to do something that statistically leads to worse outcomes, and with justifications that you can essentially only guess at. And it's not a terribly informed guess either; you're too young to have any kind of experience to bring to bear on this choice. Your parents aren't wrong, nor are they stupid.

They're also not right. You have as much information as anyone can about what you want to do, and what you're capable of doing. You'll probably fuck up a lot, and you'll probably recover from it. So relax. Try and have a sense of perspective about it all -- or a sense of humor. That will help with the fuckups, trust me.

Lastly, it's a terrible thing to try to raise a smart kid, I think I'd rather be in your shoes than your parents'. Go easy on them.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#137

Post by Surio »

genwin wrote: post #122
Surio wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The boss was negotiating, so negotiation skills are what's needed All right. Now I'm genuinely curious. What would you have said under those similar circumstances? :-)

It's best to ignore any objections and focus on getting paid a market rate (what other companies would pay). So something like "I'm worth $x". I find that the other side quickly stops raising objections and shifts to compromising on a $ figure. Still, jumping ship might be easier than getting a raise that's well beyond the rate of inflation.

Thanks for the reply.

>> Still, jumping ship might be easier

wry smile. Nothing wrong with what you've said. But come to think of it, you've endorsed rachel's POV regarding the building up of resentment with this answer. If jumping ship is the kind of disruption one has to make for what amounts to "convenient excuses" (and the manager goes on to pay 3x more to "worthless" network engineers -- read her reply above), then I say, let the resentments boil over!

EDIT: improved readability

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#138

Post by kyllo »

icelancer wrote: post #125
Fargren wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wont argue that private college in the US isn't brokenly expensive for most mayors. I'm not even saying that college is a good idea for most of the population anywhere. What I am saying is that for some important fields of knowledge that it would be good to teach to some not small fraction of the population, college is a good solution; maybe the best that has been actually tested. Of course not going to college wou…

>I wont argue that private college in the US isn't brokenly expensive for most mayors. The University of Washington is $13,000 per year for residents, who are preferentially screened and rejected because tuition for in-state residents is too cheap. UW costs $30,000/year for out-of-state residents who are more likely to be admitted since it's more than twice the cost. By the way, the University of Washington is a publ…

UW is overwhelmed with demand. They've set up satellite campuses in Tacoma and Bothell to handle the overflow, especially for business courses.

When I went there in 2003-2007 it was still a deal for the quality of education, and my degree was definitely worth what I paid for it (about $5,000-6,000/year) but the price has more than doubled since then.

If I had to choose a university at current prices I'd probably go to Western or WSU instead.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#139

Post by ahoyhere »

kostya-kow wrote: post #47
ahoyhere wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a bias if you look at dropouts as a homogeneous group, because they aren't. It's just as ludicrous to predict the same outcome for someone like me, who was always way ahead and bored to death of school, and a poor kid from the city or country who couldn't read at grade level. I doubt Tobi ever had reading comprehension problems and I bet he was passionate about his hobby leading up to his track switch. A…

I completely agree with you. You expressed exactly what I was thinking. I am 15, and I am planning to drop out of school. It is extremely frustrating trying to persuade my parents that dropping out of school doesn't mean I am giving up on life, and that I am not a failure. I cannot function in this artificial society that exists in schools, and I learn much better by myself. Finishing school would be complete waste o…

Get the book "The Teenage Liberation Handbook." It's a bit facile, but it's all about unschooling and how kids like you (and me, at the time) can and do succeed. Dig up the statistics on unschooled/homeschooled kids going to college. My parents were assuaged by the idea that many homeschoolers get into excellent colleges (meanwhile I never had a moment's intention of going to college; I had exposure to too many older friends in allegedly high-end university programs to think it was worth my time).

Your parents just want what's best for you but because they probably haven't investigated it, they believe the hype and durm and strang about dropouts.

Since you're the one who wants to do something "weird," the burden of proof is on you. (That's the position to take whenever you want to persuade anybody of anything.)

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#140

Post by genwin »

Surio wrote: post #137
genwin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's best to ignore any objections and focus on getting paid a market rate (what other companies would pay). So something like "I'm worth $x". I find that the other side quickly stops raising objections and shifts to compromising on a $ figure. Still, jumping ship might be easier than getting a raise that's well beyond the rate of inflation.

Thanks for the reply. >> Still, jumping ship might be easier wry smile . Nothing wrong with what you've said. But come to think of it, you've endorsed rachel's POV regarding the building up of resentment with this answer. If jumping ship is the kind of disruption one has to make for what amounts to "convenient excuses" (and the manager goes on to pay 3x more to "worthless" network engineers -- read her reply above),…

I meant that jumping ship might be easier at any company. Businesses put rigid limits on raises. If you want to make a market rate it's best to get it when hired.
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