Live data from Hacker News

The Sex Tape Litmus Test

laverick.org

131–138 of 138 posts

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#131

I think that any funny clauses in the contracts should be abolished and the worker/employer relations should only be regulated by law. This makes me pro-regulation and anti-market, but unfortunately I see exactly zero ways in which market can make contracts better. What are you expected to do in this situation - quit?

If we're going to have regulation, I think it would be more productive for it to make it easier to quit your job. That should actually improve the free-market dynamics.

How could it possibly be easier to quit your job?

If I want to quit my job all I have to is not show up to work and eventually, after a few attempts at communication, they will send me a form letter and my final paycheck and remove me from the list of active employees.

Of course, being a more polite sort, I'd probably at least email my manager that I wouldn't be coming back.

But seriously, how could it be easier?

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this particular case though, there's not a lot of complexity or nuance, is there? It's a blanket "We own all your IP" clause in a contract.

Maybe . . . are you OK with the legal department assuming you are a lazy simpleton if you launch software with any bugs? Especially considering any misfeatures may have been implemented under management's direction?

I'm not sure that I see your point. Adding extra bits is more work for the legal team, and might lead to 'bugs', but a clause like this is going to lead to pissed off engineers who might leave.

To further mangle the analogy, what if I release bug free code that doesn't do what it's supposed to do?

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#133
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is altogether biased towards the personal and emotional. I am influenced by the ideas behind "Gross National Happiness" and similar harder-to-quantify measures. I've read first person accounts of people during the Great Depression. (Eg, Studs Turkel's "Hard Times"). There were no jobs for some people. Any analysis which says "Unemployment is .. a mismatch between employee's desired wages and market w…

Any analysis which says "Unemployment is .. a mismatch between employee's desired wages and market wages" must be wrong, or at least simplified, because it assumes either that there is a market for jobs, or that the market wages are enough for basic survival. Agreed. As I said, I'm not a Keynesian. I'm glad you agree that monetary and fiscal stimulus will often be ineffective. If employees want to reduce risk, why wo…

> I'm glad you agree that monetary and fiscal stimulus will often be ineffective.

I never said that. Obviously a stimulus of $100 will be ineffective, but you can draw no conclusion about "often" (or "rarely") from what I wrote.

> Sticky wages increase risk of having your wage cut to $0.

Based on the research I did yesterday, and described in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4963624 , "In a baseline New Keynesian model, labor market frictions render real wage rigidity potentially irrelevant for the dynamics of inflation." and "The mechanism emphasized by Hall (2005) and Shimer (2005) that helps the search and matching model fit the facts, appears to have a neutralizing effect in sticky price models."

The search and matching model is the one I hand-waved here. Inflation isn't the same as unemployment, so this quote isn't directly transferable. But it seems that wage stickiness or lack thereof doesn't have as much effect on the economy. Instead, it increases the volatility of hiring and job creation costs.

I referenced the paper of Krausea and Lubikb, http://www.tau.ac.il/~yashiv/kl_jme2007.pdf . It includes a term for what I've been saying is a cultural morality to have sticky wages. "We employ a version of Hall’s (2005) notion of a wage norm to introduce real wage rigidity. A wage norm may arise from social convention that constrains wage adjustment for existing and newly hired workers."

> employees choose to spend the money on consumer goods rather than mitigating their risk

Because people don't make fully rational economic decisions. You might as well ask why so many people smoke, even with the knowledge of how it affects their health, or ask why I've stopped exercising despite knowing its positive benefits. Why did the banks make so many subprime mortgages? Why did so many people agree to them even with high chances of not being able to pay?

If you want, I think you can model things like "I really wanted a new computer" as a random external event akin to an unexpected medical problem or broken plumbing, and bring the analysis back into the rational hypothesis.

> To determine "market power" in any model I've seen, ...

Really? The Krausea and Lubikb paper says "The parameters describing the household are standard. We choose a coefficient of relative risk aversion σ = 2." A constant relative risk aversion implies a decreasing absolute risk aversion, so the more money one has the more willing one is to take risks.

This makes it sound like many economic models - or at least those based on the search and matching model - include risk taking as part of the analysis. Can you square my observation with your statement? Perhaps it's because their model isn't used to determine market power per se?

> your point about transaction costs does show that there is wiggle room

I'm afraid I've lost the point of this thread. I say that employment can be viewed as a monopoly, and more importantly, that an employer can abuse those monopoly powers. And yes, an employee, and especially a union of employees, can be viewed as a monopoly and also abuse its monopoly powers.

You do not believe this is the correct analysis, and you believe that the various economic models back you up.

Do these quotes help show that economist have considered my hand-waving models in much more depth?

- There are search-and-matching frictions in every sector and firms post vacancies in order to attract workers. The cost of posting vacancies and the matching process generate hiring costs. Moreover, search-and-matching frictions generate bilateral monopoly power between a worker and his firm, as a result of which they engage in wage bargaining. -- http://restud.oxfordjournals.org/content/77/3/1100.full

- A specific class of models argues that wage rigidity might arise in the context of risk- averse workers and risk-neutral firms. In a seminal contribution, Thomas and Worrall (1988) develop a model with self-enforcing wage contracts whereby risk-neutral firms provide insurance to risk-averse workers. In their model agents cannot commit, but contacts are nevertheless self-enforcing due to an extreme reputation assumption, ac- cording to which an agent who reneges on a contract is forced to trade on the spot market forever after. Efficient contracts are contained in a certain interval and when- ever the wage leaves this interval, the agents update the wage by the smallest possible change that puts the wage back into the interval (i.e., on the bounds of the interval). Rudanko (2009) embeds this kind of model into an equilibrium model of directed search with aggregate shocks. In her model a constant wage emerges if both agents can fully commit, in which case the risk-neutral firms provide insurance to risk averse workers through optimal long-term wage contracting. In contrast to Hall (2005), her micro- founded model of perfect wage rigidity does not lead to a substantial increase in the cyclical volatility of unemployment. -- http://www.econ.upf.edu/eng/graduates/gpem/jm/pdf/paper/Pape...

The description model of Rudanko sounds like your statement - that wage rigidity leads to increased unemployment during recessions - isn't necessarily true.

Quoting from her site at https://sites.google.com/site/leenarudanko/ : In this paper I develop a tractable extension of a Mortensen-Pissarides style matching model that allows for risk averse workers with limited ability to smooth consumption. I show that this leads to a form of equilibrium wage rigidity. This rigidity arises because the inability of workers to smooth their consumption across unemployment and employment spells changes how unemployed workers value wage offers, and hence also the offers that employers find profitable to make.

Aren't these quotes in opposition to what you've been describing, and more in line with the ideas I've described here?

That's not saying that the model is right, or that I'm right, only that there are economic models which agree with my views, so my views are not outright rejected by economic theory, while you think they are.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#134
post #38
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can quit and work somewhere else. Also you can read about what Sony does on Hacker News and decide not to apply there for a job in the first place. I really hope you are not actually against customized employment contracts- there are a lot of cases where they can be useful. What might be better is prohibiting instances of terms you find offensive. For example, California's moonlighting law, which effectively…

I think for many people it's going to be hard to fulfill the following: > ... except for those inventions that either: (1) relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer ... As a programmer, there's not a lot I can do that is going to be considered wholly unrelated to what I'm employed…

xugle, it seems your account got caught by the reapers. I found your comment to be informative, so it must have been some sort of mistake.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to have regulation, I think it would be more productive for it to make it easier to quit your job. That should actually improve the free-market dynamics.

How could it possibly be easier to quit your job? If I want to quit my job all I have to is not show up to work and eventually, after a few attempts at communication, they will send me a form letter and my final paycheck and remove me from the list of active employees. Of course, being a more polite sort, I'd probably at least email my manager that I wouldn't be coming back. But seriously, how could it be easier?

Include "less dangerous" in "easier". Simply not showing up is not a good option for a responsible person trying to get ahead. Making sure the employment market is healthy and decoupling health care from employment might be helpful.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#136
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any analysis which says "Unemployment is .. a mismatch between employee's desired wages and market wages" must be wrong, or at least simplified, because it assumes either that there is a market for jobs, or that the market wages are enough for basic survival. Agreed. As I said, I'm not a Keynesian. I'm glad you agree that monetary and fiscal stimulus will often be ineffective. If employees want to reduce risk, why wo…

> I'm glad you agree that monetary and fiscal stimulus will often be ineffective. I never said that. Obviously a stimulus of $100 will be ineffective, but you can draw no conclusion about "often" (or "rarely") from what I wrote. > Sticky wages increase risk of having your wage cut to $0. Based on the research I did yesterday, and described in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4963624 , "In a baseline New Keynesian…

I only saw this comment today, after you referred to it in another one. Yesterday was Christmas, after all.

I'm afraid I've lost the point of this thread. I say that employment can be viewed as a monopoly, and more importantly, that an employer can abuse those monopoly powers.

The standard model says this is correct within the transaction cost interval. I agree with this model, which is why I asked you: "how large (in $) do you think transaction costs of changing jobs actually is?"

I.e., if the transaction costs are $3k, monopsony/monopoly models might explain why someone's wage is $51k vs $53k, but they don't explain why it is $50k vs $25k.

I disagreed that your examples of Hostess/etc were related to this model, since the price changes there were far larger than any reasonable transaction cost I could think of.

Near as I can tell, Rudanko isn't doing anything different from this.

Also, you were correct that I should have said risk-adjusted dollar costs should be used to determine market power. Note, however, that risk-adjusted dollars are not the same thing as P(bankruptcy), which you seem to be using.

To conclude, I think your parameter choices are wildly off (e.g., to make your ideas work, I think you need transaction costs proportional to wages). I strongly recommend actually writing down your models (with numbers and math) to clarify your views.

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#137
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In short "you take a 5% cut in pay or I fire you and hire > the next person who walks in that door." It doesn't even > need to be said: "you will take a 5% cut in pay" implies "or > you'll have to quit and find another job." In practice this almost never happens. Employers are very reluctant to cut nominal wages, even if they could afford to hire more workers that way and get a more economically efficient outcome.…

"In practice this almost never happens" I was using that as an example. It could be "work fewer hours", "reduce health care", "have no chance for promotion", "laid off" or other things where the employer has control over an employee's future. However, as to "almost never happens", here are some recent examples: - In the recent Hostess/Twinkie news, "Though he imposed an 8 percent pay cut for all Hostess workers, Greg…

Yes, "almost never" - it's rare enough that it makes the news when it happens.

The action that should be taken based on the fact that wage stickiness causes unemployment is at minimum to avoid making them more sticky, e.g. by regulating wage cuts as if they are "monopoly abuse".

Re: The Sex Tape Litmus Test

#138
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm glad you agree that monetary and fiscal stimulus will often be ineffective. I never said that. Obviously a stimulus of $100 will be ineffective, but you can draw no conclusion about "often" (or "rarely") from what I wrote. > Sticky wages increase risk of having your wage cut to $0. Based on the research I did yesterday, and described in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4963624 , "In a baseline New Keynesian…

I only saw this comment today, after you referred to it in another one. Yesterday was Christmas, after all. I'm afraid I've lost the point of this thread. I say that employment can be viewed as a monopoly, and more importantly, that an employer can abuse those monopoly powers. The standard model says this is correct within the transaction cost interval . I agree with this model, which is why I asked you: "how large (…

"how large (in $) do you think transaction costs of changing jobs actually is?"

I am unable to calculate that, nor provide a good estimate. People do strange things for love. Does it always make economic sense? No.

What is the transaction cost of forcing your kids to leave school and boy/girlfriends if the job change requires moving? What is the transaction cost of asking your husband to quit his job and leave the church where he's been a deacon for the last 10 years? I once talked with someone who loves the sea, and couldn't think of leaving away from it. What's the transaction cost, were she your wife, to move her to a better paying job in Oklahoma? Does that include the costs of divorce, should she find that she loves the sea more than you?

What is the economic cost of being considered a "failure" and a "quitter", or "not a team player" by your neighbors and ex-coworkers? Of being disowned by your family for switching from Jehovah's Witness to Southern Baptist? Of being the sole outspoken atheist in a small Bible Belt town?

These can be estimated, certainly, but those estimates feel like post hoc parameter fitting. "If person X won't switch to another job which pays $3k more, then the price on staying is worth at least $3k." With enough parameters you can fit anything.

Can you tell how the various economic models include these factors into the cost model? How do they estimate these various costs I've outlined?

Going into semi-obscure New Mexico history, in the 1950s the 82-year-old John Prather was offered $200,000 for his mule ranch in southern NM, so that White Sands Missile Range could be expanded. The price was well above the going rate for the land, but he was the last hold-out. He was one of the last of the US pioneers to the American West, and he wasn't going to leave. Period. He would rather die in a gunfight than move.

Americans liked the romantic idea of one of the last pioneers still living the old ways, which put pressure on the Army and the police to not force the issue. They gave up, and Prather stayed there until he died.

What would you say is the transaction cost for him to move? Obviously staying there was worth more than $200,000 to him. Was it $5,000,000? Was there any amount of sum which would have gotten him to move? If no such number exists, then can you even use an economic model for this event?

BTW, in our other thread I asked this of you: do monopolies (or cartels, for that matter) ever abuse their monopoly (or oligopoly) powers? If so, do you use moral guidelines to determine what constitutes abuse?

Post reply on HN