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How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

quantamagazine.org

131–140 of 160 posts

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#131
post #123
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no "quantum wave" Earlier you wrote, "Everything is a quantum wave." You also linked to an article titled, "The Everything-Is-a-Quantum-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Physics." You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Yeah, I can see how it looks that way. I did not say everything is the quantum wave. I said everything is a wave, but the research paper i linked to uses the sloppy term Everything is a quantum wave. While I agree with the author I disagree with the title and terminology

> I did not say everything is the quantum wave.

I quoted your own comment: "Everything is a quantum wave."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48698834

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#132
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every particle type has its own field, but the OP article is counting a single particle type multiple times based on properties like spin and polarization. At one point the article reaches the number 118. That corresponds directly to 37 quantum fields once you take the "double counting" into account.

Should the quantum vacuum / zero-point field(s) be counted as well?

No, that's just the vacuum state of any of the standard quantum fields.

"Field" is being used there in its general sense, of a quantity that has a value for every point in space and time. It's saying that in a (region of a) quantum field that contains no activity, there are nevertheless random fluctuations, which can themselves be modeled as a field. But they're not separate from the quantum field that gives rise to them - they have all the same fundamental properties.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#133
post #130
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s take calculating the area of a circle. Since pi is in an irrational number that goes on forever, we can only get a closer approximation to an area circle by extending the decimals of pi. But since pi goes on forever, we can never know the exact area of aLet’s take calculating the area of a circle. Since pi is in a irrational number that goes on forever, we can only get a closer approximation to an area circle b…

Hard pass. The exact area of a circle is pi*r^2. We can calculate decimals of pi arbitrarily far, certainly further than our ability to measure. “Exact area” means we use symbolic math, not that we quibble about significant digits.

Pi is an infinite number. Each time we calculate the area of a circle with another decimal of pi we get a new answer.

You seem to be avoiding the question of how we can know the exact area of a circle knowing that pi is infinite.

I am saying that the area of a circle is impossible to know. And that has both philosophical and physical ramifications.

Very fact that this well-known scientific truth is hard to accept those people is telling.

https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-sciences/can-the-area-of-a-c...

“Hence, not only is it impossible to ever determine the exact value of the area of a circle, but it is equally impossible to measure any area with 100% accuracy.”

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#134
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can see how it looks that way. I did not say everything is the quantum wave. I said everything is a wave, but the research paper i linked to uses the sloppy term Everything is a quantum wave. While I agree with the author I disagree with the title and terminology

> I did not say everything is the quantum wave. I quoted your own comment: "Everything is a quantum wave." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48698834

Yes, again I apologize, for my sloppy writing.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#135
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the field is the substrate. "I insist upon the view that 'all is waves'." Letter to John Lighton Synge (9 November 1959), as quoted by Walter Moore in Schrödinger: Life and Thought (1989) ISBN 0521437679 It is not a breakthrough, it is just something we refuse to see, something that was known for a century. "All is a wave" is the unifying principle. I am no mathematician, but the math needs to start with that fu…

> It is not a breakthrough, it is just something we refuse to see, something that was known for a century. This sounds like you're about to try selling me a crystal and a magic ritual. The wording here is far too grandiose, and I assure you physicists are not "refusing to see" that "everything is a wave". Whatever you imagine that might mean. > The very notion of calling it "qunatum" physics is probably wrong since q…

Isn’t the wave function only discrete when we measure it?

The field is the continuous state so nothing has to jump through anything.

For example the hydrogen wave function does not tell us where the electron will be located, only where most likely will be located. What is discrete about that?

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying fewer fields, but perhaps a more fundamental substrate to reality than fields that fields emerge from. Maybe the N fields are just vibrational modes or attractor dynamics of something simpler. It seems there has to be a reason WHY there are exactly N fields, and WHY they interact in the ways they do. Edit: As I noted in another comment, the best explanation may come down to "there are only 100 viable t…

I think it's very obvious no such answer is even possible in principle. Mathematics has no limits, you can describe anything you like by picking some axioms. Do you want to make sense of the expression 1+1=3? I can find axioms in which this is true. So, there is no way to start from mathematics and find something that must exist in some way, such as "there can only be 100 types of universe". Any such discovery is con…

We can certainly imagine part of what the GP comment described being true: "a more fundamental substrate to reality than fields that fields emerge from." In fact, many physicists assume that's the case with the Standard Model - that e.g. the similarities between generations of quantum particle are explained by some deeper and (hopefully) simpler construct.

Similarly, "Maybe the N fields are just vibrational modes or attractor dynamics of something simpler" could also be true - Calibi-Yau manifolds in string theory are essentially one such attempt to unify the similar and repetitive aspects of QFT that currently have no theoretically-justified connection in the theory.

Sure, at some level you presumably hit a wall - e.g. "why are there Calabi Yau manifolds?" But I don't think that's what the GP was referring to.

> Any such discovery is contingent upon some arbitrary choice of axioms.

This is true, but we see some wonderful examples of this in the real universe, producing laws that must be true in all universes that satisfy the axioms (assuming we believe that mathematical proofs aren't somehow tied to our universe.)

For example, Noether's theorem tells us mathematically when and why conservation laws, like conservation of energy and momentum, exist (i.e., for any continuous symmetry of the action of a physical system with conservative forces.)

Similarly, the inverse square law applies to anything that propagates, with no losses, outwards from a point in all directions in locally flat three-dimensional space. Again, we expect this to be true in any universe with these properties.

There are quite a number of other examples of this.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#138
post #77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am no mathematician, but the math needs to start with that fundamental principle. This is a weird sort of hubris. “I’m not qualified to do this job but I can certainly tell you how it needs to be done.” > And if everything is a wave there are no discrete quantities beyond our definition of what constitutes the end, or borders, of the wave. This is not true in multiple ways. First, it’s known that these particles…

> This is a weird sort of hubris. “I’m not qualified to do this job but I can certainly tell you how it needs to be done.” A quantum state is a mathematical entity that represents a physical system. Since waves are not physical can you see where I can assume that the math needs to start from a different place? If it is even useful at all? > it’s known that these particles exhibit quantum behavior. Many measures are i…

> To measure is to quantize

You're confusing "quantify" with "quantize".

To measure is to quantify, not to quantize.

In quantum physics, "quantized" means that a field has a smallest possible excitation, called a quantum, rather than being able to vary continuously.

For example, the quantum of the electromagnetic field is the photon.

A quantum field is fundamentally quantized, so the waves that arise in quantum fields are similarly quantized.

> Again, you are quantifying things that in and of themselves are not quantized outside of our conception.

No, we have extremely strong evidence that the physical fields themselves are quantized. If you try to model physics using classical waves - which we do, e.g. in semiclassical electrodynamics, which models the electromagnetic field as continuous instead of quantized field - you find there are limits to what can accurately be modeled. To get an accurate model, you need to quantize the field.

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#139
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a weird sort of hubris. “I’m not qualified to do this job but I can certainly tell you how it needs to be done.” A quantum state is a mathematical entity that represents a physical system. Since waves are not physical can you see where I can assume that the math needs to start from a different place? If it is even useful at all? > it’s known that these particles exhibit quantum behavior. Many measures are i…

> To measure is to quantize, so this is circular reasoning. This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Measurement (which is a precisely defined mathematical concept) is not the same thing as quantization. For a very basic example, in all known physics theories, including QFT, SR, and GR, space and time can be measured, and they are not quantized. In fact, there is no theory compatible with SR in which space and time ca…

> space and time can be measured, and they are not quantized.

Yet…

Because we do not have the formulas does not mean they are not quantized.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-time-quantized...

Re: How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really?

#140
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actually the idea is that nature cant operate at that scale. the thing about planck units is they are extrapolations that end at single planck length that has some problems just with basic geometry, as well as a supposed instability of a planck space spontaneously collapsing. a planck unit volume must take a form that has dimensions of single planck units and pack together so that no smaller spacings are created. it…

probe something smaller than a planck unit and nature operates by creating a black hole

there is no smaller than a planck unit.
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