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VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

arxiv.org

131–140 of 226 posts

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#131
post #122
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

Could you please share which coding agent you are using with it?

I am using Mistral Vibe.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even the most basic questions such as put a ball in a cup and place it on a table upside down then pick up the cup and put it in a box. I do not think this is a great example. First, it is not a question. Second, it seems very related to robotics. A model itself cannot put a ball anywhere, it can just call tools and answer in text, image, etc. An LLM seeing "put a x in a y and place it on a z upside down then pick…

The thing is we tried that for decades, using more formal logic to build reasoning engines. And we never got it to be even a fraction as good and generic as learning-based LLMs are today.

I dont think think my point is getting across. This is in the context of how much world knowledge a model needs to be trained on, not llm vs not llm.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#133
post #102
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a well known concept, which we can't deliver yet. LLM/transformer give us reasoning engine as a byproduct of its design, but it is quite ineffective. If we can distill reasoning, if reasoning can be achieved without general knowledge, it will be a very effective machine. Some amount of knowledge is required for reasoning. Maybe such model can dynamically knowledge domains to have taxonomy. For example…

Yup, you still need knowledge. Even if you have access to all the data and tools, you still need to know what to search for, what tools to use and to understand what the user is asking. Our computers can already do everything, have access to all the tools and information, yet they still need a human/intelligence to use it and apply to specific problems. Even defining the problem requires knowledge. As for the tools,…

Model can use tools to get that knowledge. In your example, read Wikipedia page about table tennis. Imagine a reasoning engine with a big enough context, that knows nothing. A path built from first principles to understand "table tennis spin" — does not look very long for me.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#134

How would you best utilize a model like this for coding? I take it it's not meant for vibe coding a full app, and the reasoning probably makes it unsuitable for autocomplete. Would you use it to implement specific functions? I looked at one of the coding benchmarks used, Live Code Bench, and it seems to be problem descriptions with sample input and output, and then a solution with a single function or class. Seems li…

Not sure if it's suited for that. If you read the article it's stated that it is basically a research project to see how far they can push it with small models.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#135
post #110

Looks like we are seeing small but mighty model breakthroughs, outpacing the pure capital firepower of SOTA providers. I love rooting for the little guy, but is it too soon to call it? To play devils advocate, could it just be the benchmarks are not efficient enough to capture success of real developer workflows?

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

I'm running qwen36.:35b:iq4 IQ4_XS quant. Takes 18 GB of RAM with 131k context window. Seems to be really good. Have it running local stuff via Hermes, using a cloud model via Ollama (Deepseek V4-Pro) for heavy lifting.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#136
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, you still need knowledge. Even if you have access to all the data and tools, you still need to know what to search for, what tools to use and to understand what the user is asking. Our computers can already do everything, have access to all the tools and information, yet they still need a human/intelligence to use it and apply to specific problems. Even defining the problem requires knowledge. As for the tools,…

Model can use tools to get that knowledge. In your example, read Wikipedia page about table tennis. Imagine a reasoning engine with a big enough context, that knows nothing. A path built from first principles to understand "table tennis spin" — does not look very long for me.

How would it know about Wikipedia and when to use it? From the tool description? If we had 100k such tools, then that wouldn't even fit in the context.

This is only one example, plus if the topic is more complex, maybe it had to search/learn everything (what is table tennis, what is spin, what is a human, what is a ball), etc. So it would be like spawning a baby human, have it spend an (instant) life learning about the world before providing an answer. Maybe this could work in 10 yesrs, if models get stronger with huge context lengths and almost instant data retrieval. Is it the best way to go about things though? Most animals have most of their core abilities embedded in their DNA and "instincts". A cat doesn't have to learn what a bird is in order to hunt it, it's already "embedded" in its neural pathways, or even deeper, at a full-body level. Those type of systems are a lot more efficient than the learned ones. Maybe the best future AI, will have everything already embedded, instead of just being a strong reasoning machine. All AI responses should be instant and like "reflexes" instead of reasoned steps.

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#137
post #93
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To follow up on this, I had it solve a nasty ODE problem that I saw in the recent Mathematica 15 release post: Solve the following first-order ODE for f(x): ((-1 - 2*x)*f(x)*tan(1 + x - exp(-61 - 2*x)*f(x)/x) + exp(61 + 2*x)*x*(1 - x*tan(1 + x - exp(-61 - 2*x)*f(x)/x)) + x*tan(1 + x - exp(-61 - 2*x)*f(x)/x)*f'(x)) = 0 Find the general solution f(x). And surprisingly it found a valid solution! Extra impressive because…

How do you know it’s a valid solution? Are you able to verify it yourself?

This is a math problem with a math solution. You verify it with math

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#139
post #122
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just started using qwen3.6:35b a couple days ago running on my framework desktop and rather impressed. It runs really well and reminds me of probably the first Claude model I used. It's the first local model that's actually working for me in a coding agent I've tried. Very exciting!

Could you please share which coding agent you are using with it?

npx @oh-my-pi/pi-coding-agent

Re: VibeThinker: 3B param model that beats Opus 4.5 on reasoning with novel SFT+GRPO

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my dream ever since. Instead of encoding "all the knowledge" into those parameters, how about just making a model that has the same size, but all (or rather most) it does is reasoning? Just give it the ability to browse the net (e.g. language specifications, documentation and best practices) and just have it do its thing. Why does my coding agent need to know the population of New York, know a cheese ca…

Education had this sad 15 year period where it thought “competences” are all you need. Turns out that without the world knowledge to have a base of facts, it is not.

Competences were always supposed to be supported by demonstrable knowledge and skills and behavior.

So I don't think it's true that relevant knowledge was deprioritized. At least it wasn't supposed to be.

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