Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

arxiv.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 140 posts

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#131

Post by i5heu »

Taek wrote: post #114
i5heu wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen definitions that I like they where in the direction of „if a system can recognize a problem it has not encountered before and can attempt to solve it with onto the problem adapted solutions, then it is conscious“ But then again this is just a external crude form of test that can lead to something like „light bulbs emit warmth, so fire must be a light bulb“

I hope you don't mind if I get super pedantic here. But what qualifies as "a problem", and what counts as "has not encountered before" and what counts as "adapted solutions"? Because "a problem" could be as simple as conducting heat through a lattice of atoms and "not encountered before" could be from a specific temperature hotspot that was never seen before, etc. It's really thorny to get to the bottom of things!

It was just an example. You probably can imagine some kind of level you would consider definitly conscious.

I recomend focusing on designing Tests before rigid definitions of states of tests. - it is much clearer that way what is asked from something to be conscious.

But again these are all just indirect tests because we cannot test the core of consciousness because we don't know the core of consciousness.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#132

Post by NopIdoN »

handoflixue wrote: post #128
NopIdoN wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can keep adding tools to your penknife but she'll never love you back.

That's like arguing that cars aren't fast because some people refer to them with feminine pronouns. And I'm not even one of those people

No, it's not about pronouns. I'm saying there's no reason to expect that a machine acquiring more skills will "cross into intelligence".

I can train my dog to jump higher but he won't become a kangaroo.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#133

Post by slopinthebag »

Joker_vD wrote: post #126
slopinthebag wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if I write "2 + 2 = 4" on a piece of paper, am I doing arithmetic, or merely simulating it? After all, there are no sticks involved. But I'm also willing to accept that a computer is simulating arithmetic, and not actually doing it. That makes no difference to me, as long as the output is the same. In fact it's kind of a boring distinction to make.

So just the same, it shouldn't make a difference if LLMs simulate "human-like attributes" or actually possess them, right?

That depends on the question. If the question is “are LLMs conscious” it would matter a lot actually.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#134

Post by kybernetikos »

Garlef wrote: post #120
kybernetikos wrote: post #27

I'm not sure who this kind of thing is aimed at. I think the majority of people who are happy to anthropomorphise LLMs from a philosophical point of view (rather than those who just do it for convenience, the same way you might a cat or dog or stupid thermostat that never works right), are already completely happy with the notion that a computer game might have elements that are human like. They've already accepted t…

But didn't even John Searle argue at this level when refuting the "systems response" to his chinese room argument? Very simplified the refutal goes like this: "It would be silly to attribute consciousness to a room". Ultimately, Searle is berating people for even arguing inside the very analogy he put up to make a point. (... my key takeaway is that even very smart people get astonishingly dumb on this topic)

> "It would be silly to attribute consciousness to a room".

And regardless of whether you think that's an interesting rebuttal or not, it's safe to say that people who properly accept anthropomorphism of llms are content to be silly in this way.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#135

Post by handoflixue »

NopIdoN wrote: post #132
handoflixue wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like arguing that cars aren't fast because some people refer to them with feminine pronouns. And I'm not even one of those people

No, it's not about pronouns. I'm saying there's no reason to expect that a machine acquiring more skills will "cross into intelligence". I can train my dog to jump higher but he won't become a kangaroo.

Okay, so: define Intelligence. What task are LLMs failing at, that a real intelligent being could do? If LLMs do that, would you actually concede they're intelligent?

If your dog grows a tail and a pouch and starts hopping around, it might be time to concede that it is actually a kangaroo.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#136

Post by port11 »

ma2kx wrote: post #90
Veedrac wrote: post #63

Wow this paper is bad. I was expecting little and received genuine crackpottery. It's hard to critique this paper directly because its claims are so incoherent and decorated with so much obnoxious verbiage[1] that people aren't going to believe me when I point out what the claims actually are. Regardless, this is their paper: First, they conflate the substrate with the presentation layer. Then, they point out that Tu…

They don't even implement their logic gates within the normal game mechanics but with scripting some bit-goats in the editor. So the AoE2 Engine is just a graphical representation of their script. But my favorite is this one: "Corollary 1 (AoE II is Turing-Complete). Let I be an instance of AoE II with two players p0, p1. Assume p0 has two markets, a town centre, a trade cart, six villagers, and five farms; while p1…

And what’s more, it’s Turing-complete in the Feudal Age. They should write a follow-up paper once they’ve gone an age up.

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#137

Post by [deleted] »

Taek wrote: post #107
tsurba wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so animals wouldn’t be conscious because they don’t use language? If so, I vote that the stupidest hypothesis of the year. Or would one count any communication between animals as language? In that case almost any interaction would count.

That's where things get interesting. As soon as you start asking what counts as communication... what about signals passing between cells? What about heat passing between atoms? As soon as try and draw a firm line between "X counts and Y doesn't", you find that you really can't. There are no obvious boundaries between a deeply complex and fully functioning FL human brain, and a pile of atoms bouncing around arbitrari…

[deleted]

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#138

Post by NopIdoN »

handoflixue wrote: post #135
NopIdoN wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not about pronouns. I'm saying there's no reason to expect that a machine acquiring more skills will "cross into intelligence". I can train my dog to jump higher but he won't become a kangaroo.

Okay, so: define Intelligence. What task are LLMs failing at, that a real intelligent being could do? If LLMs do that, would you actually concede they're intelligent? If your dog grows a tail and a pouch and starts hopping around, it might be time to concede that it is actually a kangaroo.

Do you think my dog could grow a pouch because of jump training?

If I train him to spin while jumping will he become a helicopter instead?

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#139

Post by handoflixue »

NopIdoN wrote: post #138
handoflixue wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so: define Intelligence. What task are LLMs failing at, that a real intelligent being could do? If LLMs do that, would you actually concede they're intelligent? If your dog grows a tail and a pouch and starts hopping around, it might be time to concede that it is actually a kangaroo.

Do you think my dog could grow a pouch because of jump training? If I train him to spin while jumping will he become a helicopter instead?

Okay, so "Intelligence" is just a magic made up word to you. Sorry to waste your time

Re: If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II

#140

Post by NopIdoN »

handoflixue wrote: post #139
NopIdoN wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think my dog could grow a pouch because of jump training? If I train him to spin while jumping will he become a helicopter instead?

Okay, so "Intelligence" is just a magic made up word to you. Sorry to waste your time

Which close-up magic tricks do I have to learn before you'll admit I'm a proper wizard?
Post reply on HN