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Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

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Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#131
Just yesterday, I was accosted in a public space by an individual that immediately provoked an aggressive confrontation, falsely claiming that I had invaded their personal space. After that initial accusation, they whipped out a pair of smart glasses and begin recording the conversation. It was not immediately obvious that they were recording, even though I am familiar with such devices. Their devive presumably recorded audio (otherwise what’s the point?), and that is a class A misdemeanor in my state. Of course, that presumes that the police would actually bother to enforce that law in the first place.

It seemed clear to me that the individual was trying to provoke a confrontation, as they framed it in such a way that they were justifying their actions in advance. Much like a bully will tell on onlookers lies to justify the beating they’re giving.

And that’s a problem with panoptic on surveillance, they will edit and frame footage to produce whatever narrative they want to promote. This goes for both state and individual actors. Context is King, and when only one side can provide and control the context, lies can be passed as truth with very little effort.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#132
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that’s true, the Chinese government does also seem to be motivated to keep the cost of housing and food low for its citizens, and provide services and facilities for the public good.

Ha, you really believe that? You can't live in area without the permission of the Government. The current Chinese regime seems to be really going kinda crazy with their new leader. They've lost their more practical leadership since the new guy has consolidated power.

Not to mention buildings last maybe 25 years before they start falling apart. Compared to 70 in the US.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#134
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely people who blindly praise and romanticize China and ignore how dystopian all the monitoring systems there are, there is essentially no privacy. Even chat apps are infiltrated or Chinese run in some way, shape, or form.

I am not endorsing what China is doing in terms of surveillance by any means, but their argument would be that every nation not subservient to the US got overthrown by CIA backed forces the moment they opened up. The surveillance tech that is much more likely to be deployed in the US and that few are talking about is Israeli tech used to spy on and suppress the self determination of Palestinians. Especially given the…

> Especially given the recently proposed fusing of US/Israeli military tech.

This has been a thing for a while to be fair. Not sure if you're just mentioning of some new project instead? We've given and gotten back tech to and from Israel.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#135

What really gets to me is how big tech isn't even pretending anymore to serve society. They clearly feel superior to the rest of us and entitled to rule.

If you frame it this way in your mind you will be surprised when people pick surveillance over public disorder. If you don't like that world (I don't either) you can't bury your head in the sand about the problems it is solving, you need a "No, but... " framing where you give answers that actually work. There is a ground-level appeal of the China-style panopticon because it delivers public order and clean streets. La…

> There is a ground-level appeal of the China-style panopticon because it delivers public order and clean streets.

Correct.

> Larry didn't just buy his way to digital dictator by bribing the right people

Incorrect.

> it answers a question in a way other people are avoiding, because answering it requires a lot of work and uncomfortable tradeoffs.

Larry Ellison is not interested in public order. The surveillance system isn’t going to be for normal people, it’s going to be for Larry Ellison. California isn’t filthy because it lacks a panopticon; it was cleaned for visiting Chinese dignitaries without one. If Ellison had wanted to clean up the street and has the appeal you think that he does, he could have just run for governor.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#136

It's not the recording that matters, it's the enforcement. In PRC, you get your jaywalking mugshot on the intersection jumbotron, that social humiliation is enough to get people in line and establish public order. I wager shameless (individualistic) Americans would troll such methods, i.e. it would be counter productive in US cultural contexts... which is bleak because it means would need even harsher big brother enf…

I don't think jaywalking deterrence is what society is currently in need of.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#137

I think the really dangerous part here is not just “surveillance bad”. It is that AI removes the labour cost that used to limit surveillance. CCTV was already a problem, but someone still had to watch it, search it, interpret it, escalate it. AI changes that. It makes surveillance searchable, scalable and administratively useful. The shift is from “you may be observed” to “your behaviour can be continuously machine-i…

> this fetish for controlling people through coercion that seems so prevalent in certain new modern business contexts, like amazon warehouse workers and delivery employees. The only thing it creates is resentment. Is that how you want to build a company or society on. Resentment?

"Resentment" is a bad-faith interpretation at what it creates. What it creates, and why you see so much of it, is a powerful mechanisms to automate routine business of management and extraction of value.

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#138

It's not the recording that matters, it's the enforcement. In PRC, you get your jaywalking mugshot on the intersection jumbotron, that social humiliation is enough to get people in line and establish public order. I wager shameless (individualistic) Americans would troll such methods, i.e. it would be counter productive in US cultural contexts... which is bleak because it means would need even harsher big brother enf…

[dead]

Re: Larry Ellison: "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we’re recording"

#139
post #2

And of course, the best behavior will be the behavior that poses zero threat to the people in power. What a great future we have ahead of us, my colleagues.

Of course recordings are to be used against those that threaten the people in power, while those in power enjoy a cone of silence. Same as it ever was.

Power is silencing other people. Follows from the problem of coordinated action. Foundation of asymmetric law enforcement, a cornerstone of tyranny. Even in a society ostensibly governed by the "rule of law".

What's new is how concentrated the reins of power have become. Paradoxically, could lead to a period of major instability. The year of four emperors.

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