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The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

131–140 of 149 posts

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#131

My own anecdote related to this idea was on a playthrough of Skyrim. I was between objectives and wandering through the map. I came across one of the ubiquitous caves which I decided to enter. I was attacked by some generic low-level bandits and I cleared the cave. After dispatching the enemies I was looting through the cave and came across some letters. They detailed a tale of a family that came on hard times in a n…

I read your comment to my partner who pointed out that what your Skyrim character was doing was exactly what the billionaires do - treat us all as NPC’s whose stories don’t matter. I’m glad you had your epiphany.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#132

My own anecdote related to this idea was on a playthrough of Skyrim. I was between objectives and wandering through the map. I came across one of the ubiquitous caves which I decided to enter. I was attacked by some generic low-level bandits and I cleared the cave. After dispatching the enemies I was looting through the cave and came across some letters. They detailed a tale of a family that came on hard times in a n…

I had a similar experience playing, of all things Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising. You play as a variety of US Marines helping Russia defend some island from a Chinese invasion so as to control some recently discovered oil deposits.

And at one point while playing this already somewhat implausible situation, I thought "that random PLA soldier I just mowed down would not have, in reality, signed up to be the invading force in a petro-conflict". It kind of killed first-person shooters for me for a while, because I accidentally humanized a poorly-programmed bot in a ridiculous, made-up scenario into making me feel bad for them.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#133
post #12

> As a result, the game offers no easy satisfaction of hacking and slashing through weaker opponents. Besides the questionable morality of kill=experience=progress in typical hack'n'slash or roguelike, what started to irritate me in there as I grew older as well, was the stupid mechanics where crowds of enemies described as intelligent humanoids (i.e. not animals or robots) facing clearly overpowered high-level PC (f…

This is, IMO something that has infected modern mainstream TTRPG: Monsters hardly run away, even if a fireball just killed half of you. One thing B/X AD&D got right were the heavy use of Moral Checks, e.g. Check their morale on first death in enemy party, when half have died, etc. In fact, fighting is deadly and scary. And these morale checks differentiated undead as that enemy that knows no fear and had no morale ch…

I've retrofitted the Morale mechanic into DND5 and PFRPG1 as a Will Save. I generally run HERO System, though, for both Fantasy and for Star Wars. In HERO, minions of all sorts have to make EGO[1] rolls with cumulative minuses[0] for casualties AND for any BODY damage[2] taken. Fail the EGO roll and there is often is a "collapse cascade" effect as retreating/surrendering units are considered casualties, makes the steadfast units more likely to rout as well.

Fighting hordes with one or two strong heroes, that's a good thing. You need to rout those mobs. Each additional engaged melee enemy makes it easier and easier to hit you, and before long the individually weak goblins are climbing all over you, taking off your armor (so they can shiv you to death), smear you with goblin fluids, among other indignities.

Anyone with high EGO or strong Mental Defense- which is any Big Bad Guy, unless it is a "Big Bad Also Dumb Guy" like a troll or a rancor - will be harder to turn with a Morale roll. BBADGs can also be fun since you have a chance of stealing control from the bads, with a contested Skill roll (Animal Handling, Diplomacy, Tasty Snacks, etc). I always feel bad for the cave troll in FotR, so that's fun.

This sort of thing works more or less the same in DND-based systems, just swap in Will save, and keep in mind the difference of standard deviation between 1d20 and 3d6. An impossible penalty with 3d6 is just another Tuesday with 1d20.

[0] Like most things HERO, follow the rule of doubling. -1 for every halving of the original force.

[1] i.e., Willpower

[2] BODY is what kills you, disables your bits, makes you Bleed. PAIN is equal to BLEED is equal to the hit to Morale roll. Eh, my "stacking BLEED" is a houserule so, take that with $.02, it's not stock. HERO bleed rules are for pansies.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#134

Well, Ebrietas and Rom in Bloodborne are the only two monsters that aren't actively hostile, and both have lore backstories (including their genetic relationship) explaining that. Killing Ebrietas is optional, which works against the idea that the game is setting you up to question the ethics of monster-killing; many players don't even realize they can walk away from Ebrietas, because the game absolutely primes you t…

The game very explicitly implores the player to question the ethics of monster slaying -- most directly through the character of Djura, who points out that the beasts were once people too. The game goes so far as to give you a dialogue box when talking to him, with the options to spare the beasts or not There is also the romp through the Hunter's Nightmare, whose first act is replete with beasts cowering in fear at t…

Only in Old Yharnam! You're right to call it out, I missed that, but I feel like even the BSB in Old Yharnam has a backstory motivating you to put it down.

Arguably, not much in Bloodborne is even actually happening.

(My confidence on all this isn't super high, but this is like the one video game I do play, and I've gone a little deep on the lore.)

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#135
post #34

Odd that it doesn’t mention Metal Gear Solid, which was casting doubt on the morality of the player character’s actions and painting boss fights as tragic affairs back in 1998, even though it does mention MGS love letter Spec Ops: The Line (and even though MGS is a media darling and probably significantly overdiscussed in general).

Slaying people is optional in MGS2 and higher, gameplay-wise. There’s not even a dilemma as long as you can handle hand-to-hand combat and a dart gun.

I think that is one of the things I've always loved about the Metal Gear Solid games. Killing NPCs is something you can definitely decide to do, but there is almost always a consequence for it. The games' mechanics reward less violence. But is still a choice for the player to make on which path, and set of consequences, they want to have.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#136
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the author, being Czech, wanted to look beyond the quintessential Slavic contribution to the genre. It’s the only explanation I can think of. The idea that monsters can be understood, and spared because in the end they’re exhibiting human flaws, is such a powerful storytelling device.

>author, being Czech Sapkowski is from Poland, though. Still Slav, but still.

Of course it’s Slav, and of course he’s Polish, but he draws from Slavic folklore.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#137

This article had me until it said the pacifist run in Undertale was more difficult. Anyone that has attempted a “genocide” route where you kill everyone will probably tell you that that boss is probably one of the hardest things they ever done in a videogame - if they can beat it at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg9IMJKnIAA

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#138
post #12

> As a result, the game offers no easy satisfaction of hacking and slashing through weaker opponents. Besides the questionable morality of kill=experience=progress in typical hack'n'slash or roguelike, what started to irritate me in there as I grew older as well, was the stupid mechanics where crowds of enemies described as intelligent humanoids (i.e. not animals or robots) facing clearly overpowered high-level PC (f…

While I agree it's incredibly jarring in some games, I'm always thinking back at a presentation by David Rosen on procedural animation: "First, do no harm to the gameplay". He's talking about animations in particular, but I feel that should be a core pillar for any game designer. Many things are unnatural in games: you don't instantly recover from a beating by eating one apple in real life, but we're ok with it in ga…

> you don't instantly recover from a beating by eating one apple in real life,

Contrast with Dwarf Fortress where you'll end up as a crutch user because it's more ¡FUN! that way.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, IMO something that has infected modern mainstream TTRPG: Monsters hardly run away, even if a fireball just killed half of you. One thing B/X AD&D got right were the heavy use of Moral Checks, e.g. Check their morale on first death in enemy party, when half have died, etc. In fact, fighting is deadly and scary. And these morale checks differentiated undead as that enemy that knows no fear and had no morale ch…

I've retrofitted the Morale mechanic into DND5 and PFRPG1 as a Will Save. I generally run HERO System, though, for both Fantasy and for Star Wars. In HERO, minions of all sorts have to make EGO[1] rolls with cumulative minuses[0] for casualties AND for any BODY damage[2] taken. Fail the EGO roll and there is often is a "collapse cascade" effect as retreating/surrendering units are considered casualties, makes the ste…

HERO system Star Wars. What a magnificent grognard.

Re: The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters

#140
post #12

> As a result, the game offers no easy satisfaction of hacking and slashing through weaker opponents. Besides the questionable morality of kill=experience=progress in typical hack'n'slash or roguelike, what started to irritate me in there as I grew older as well, was the stupid mechanics where crowds of enemies described as intelligent humanoids (i.e. not animals or robots) facing clearly overpowered high-level PC (f…

They're just games. If you want a more realistic challenge, there's plenty in the real world. And it doesn't have to be violent.
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