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Building Pi with Pi

lucumr.pocoo.org

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Re: Building Pi with Pi

#131

Post by chabes »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #113
meowface wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Codex and Claude Code store all this too. Lately I've started having each agent regularly read each other's chat transcripts as well as their own, including even the very same session I'm in. (With big contexts they increasingly forget a few things that they re-learn by just looking at the verbatim transcript.) I don't think it's worth writing my own harness or switching to Pi and writing a plugin, but I definitely n…

It is not worth switching to Pi except as a hobbyist. Something that is overlooked: the mainstream harnesses have a huge advantage in telemetry and datapoints to use to improve the harness. They have internal teams building the tooling. They have tight integration built-in with their own backends (e.g. optimizing for caching). Are you tinkering? Or trying to build something useful? If you're trying to build something…

Hard disagree.

Pi has optimizations as well, and development is quite active.

We are literally months into this new frontier. Mainstream harnesses are not far off from a minimal + extensible open alternative.

You don’t have to build your own plugins, as you can simply install an existing plugin that does what the mainstream harnesses do. Folks are already making the same functionality, but with more control to the user.

If you are a builder, like many reading this thread, pi is the way to go. Pi already gives you the tools to leverage LLMs to assist with building plugins, if that’s the way you want to go.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#132

Post by chabes »

meowface wrote: post #122
tpm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something that is overlooked: the mainstream harnesses have a huge advantage in telemetry and datapoints to use to improve the harness. They have internal teams building the tooling. They have tight integration built-in with their own backends (e.g. optimizing for caching). > Are you tinkering? Or trying to build something useful? If you're trying to build something useful, use a tool. Do I want to become completel…

You'll be dependent on it whether or not you use the main harnesses. You pay for the model. The frontier models will likely always be better than the open source ones.

> The frontier models will likely always be better than the open source ones.

Their lead is only a few months, and shrinking.

Local is the future.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#133

Post by Npovview »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #107
Npovview wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have sewage infrastructure to handle human waste. Maybe future AIs will help in building such infrastructure in information space to handle pollution, noise, slop. Gmail has perfected the art of aggregating distributed signals from emails to filter out spams. Maybe someone can take a look at this problem. This is what bot protection looks like in the age of AI, we need slop-protection as well.

In this case I have a perfect agent code right here: const perfectAgent = (prompt) => "Nope";

Don't throw the baby out with the slop water.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#134

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

cgriswald wrote: post #130
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I’m wondering what to call people who get offended on behalf of other people or entities that they imagine might be offended by some term or other. See, they feel bad, and like small children, they assume everyone else must feel bad. Okay, in case of people and words like n___er, one could argue they have a leg to stand on. But stupid computer programs? Really? And then I remember that in my part of the gal…

I don’t have to imagine the offense of others to take offense to slurs intended to denigrate them. If I tell you not to use the n-word in my presence I’m not doing it for black people. I’m doing it for me. I don’t want to hear that shit because it offends me. The entire mindset that would think it is okay offends me. A slur applied to anthropomorphic programs is the same mindset to someone who really believes the pro…

You see, I believe that cars with enough mileage have a soul. My car definitely has grown a soul. Yours might be a rust bucket for all I care. And yet it has a soul of its own.

Programs also have souls. Especially the little well-crafted programs which are works of art. Their authors took a part of their soul and put them into code, and you can see it in the way the code is written and in the way the programs work. They are not anthropomorphic, and yet they have a soul.

A clanker is anthropomorphic in a way that an advanced enough mimic in a dungeon that looks like your ideal waifu is anthropomorphic. It will infect you the moment you get kissably close to it. It subsists on egregious acts of copyright infringement. It’s a parasite that seeks to destroy a part of your brain and replace it with itself, making you quiver in pain each time you try to think for yourself, and the pain stops when you let it mimic your thinking while paying its creators per word-chunk it outputs.

The clanker seems anthropomorphic enough for the people it has infected, so they get offended to the point of blind rage when someone points out that no, this is its mimicry, and that it doesn’t actually experience things.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#136

Post by jdgoesmarching »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #35
dist-epoch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> piece of equipment You are certain about things that experts in philosophy/consciousness/AI can't agree on. That should make you pause, not plow ahead.

I know that there is a lot of AI psychosis going on, but I don't have to subscribe to that. I consider it very problematic that we have some industry leaders (eg: Anthropic with their model wellbeing) that are seriously throwing that type of thinking into the room.

I love Pi, but it’s pretty distasteful to write off ongoing debates in a separate field than your own (philosophy, particularly theory of mind) as “AI psychosis,” which ironically has its own experts working to understand it as dangerous phenomenon that extends much further than trivial anthropomorphism.

I share your dislike of the industry’s marketing, but this is coming off as more petulant than the reasonable skepticism you seem to be aiming for.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#137

Post by CharlieDigital »

siva7 wrote: post #117
CharlieDigital wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not worth switching to Pi except as a hobbyist. Something that is overlooked: the mainstream harnesses have a huge advantage in telemetry and datapoints to use to improve the harness. They have internal teams building the tooling. They have tight integration built-in with their own backends (e.g. optimizing for caching). Are you tinkering? Or trying to build something useful? If you're trying to build something…

> Are you tinkering? Or trying to build something useful? If you're trying to build something useful, use a tool. I don't think that you really get what this new era of software is about otherwise you would understand why the experienced are spending time tinkering on the so called harness (like openclaw did)

OpenClaw is far from useful. Aside from the creator trading the fame for a job at OpenAI, it's hard to see how it's transformed anything.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#138

Post by CharlieDigital »

chabes wrote: post #131
CharlieDigital wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not worth switching to Pi except as a hobbyist. Something that is overlooked: the mainstream harnesses have a huge advantage in telemetry and datapoints to use to improve the harness. They have internal teams building the tooling. They have tight integration built-in with their own backends (e.g. optimizing for caching). Are you tinkering? Or trying to build something useful? If you're trying to build something…

Hard disagree. Pi has optimizations as well, and development is quite active. We are literally months into this new frontier. Mainstream harnesses are not far off from a minimal + extensible open alternative. You don’t have to build your own plugins, as you can simply install an existing plugin that does what the mainstream harnesses do. Folks are already making the same functionality, but with more control to the us…

That's like arguing that you should spend your time tuning your IDE. How does that relate to end-user value created?

Yes, you built yourself a nice little utility.

Meanwhile, you wasted those tokens and time that could have been spent building actual, useful software instead of hobby tinkering your harness.

It's like thinking your sneaker tread design is going to make the difference between you and someone who just goes out there and runs everyday. The person that just runs is going to win the race every time while you 3D print the perfect tread design optimized for you running style...and don't actually run.

If you want to produce better results at running, you just run and optimize the externalities (gear) later. Same here: you have a magical software production factory and the only thing you want to use it for is your hobby tweaking of your perfect harness instead of...just making useful software.

:clap: :clap: I guess.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#139

Post by pegasus »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #138
chabes wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Pi has optimizations as well, and development is quite active. We are literally months into this new frontier. Mainstream harnesses are not far off from a minimal + extensible open alternative. You don’t have to build your own plugins, as you can simply install an existing plugin that does what the mainstream harnesses do. Folks are already making the same functionality, but with more control to the us…

That's like arguing that you should spend your time tuning your IDE. How does that relate to end-user value created? Yes, you built yourself a nice little utility. Meanwhile, you wasted those tokens and time that could have been spent building actual, useful software instead of hobby tinkering your harness. It's like thinking your sneaker tread design is going to make the difference between you and someone who just g…

Why would taking the more open, minimalist, configurable and ultimately diligent route means you won't be working on anything else?? Not to mention that pi has other advantages over Claude and Codex, read up on it. Also, improvements to the agent itself will pay more dividends the earlier they are applied. The tone of this message is waaaay off.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#140

Post by CharlieDigital »

pegasus wrote: post #139
CharlieDigital wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like arguing that you should spend your time tuning your IDE. How does that relate to end-user value created? Yes, you built yourself a nice little utility. Meanwhile, you wasted those tokens and time that could have been spent building actual, useful software instead of hobby tinkering your harness. It's like thinking your sneaker tread design is going to make the difference between you and someone who just g…

Why would taking the more open, minimalist, configurable and ultimately diligent route means you won't be working on anything else?? Not to mention that pi has other advantages over Claude and Codex, read up on it. Also, improvements to the agent itself will pay more dividends the earlier they are applied. The tone of this message is waaaay off.

    > Why would taking the more open, minimalist, configurable and ultimately diligent route means you won't be working on anything else??
You're using the same finite pool of time and tokens. Why waste your time with the perfect gear instead of focusing on just getting really good at running? Just go run and when you've pushed the limits and the gear becomes the difference, then optimize the gear to get to the next level.

While you're busy trying to optimize your harness, others are just building and shipping with the magical software factory.

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