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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#131

Post by Aurornis »

bogwog wrote: post #110
lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

> Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. What makes you say that? It's well known that the addictive patterns in these apps trigger dopamine the same way drugs do. In a sense, dopamine is the "chemical substance" central to the addiction. Heroine and algorithms are just different ways to get it. https://med.stanford.edu/news/insights/2021/10/addictive…

Everything you do “triggers dopamine”. Reading HN triggers dopamine. Eating breakfast triggers dopamine. Dopamine is also important for movement and many other things.

This is a lame reduction of brain chemistry that has been used to push agendas. Dopamine is not equivalent do addiction.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#132

Post by hapticmonkey »

Aurornis wrote: post #100
alkonaut wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box. If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes. For TikTok the situation is worse.…

I think it would be great if all of these apps had an option to function like you propose: Your feed is a simple view of people you’ve chosen to follow. The end. Then all of the people who have trouble with self-control on infinite feeds can enable this mode, and everyone who wants the recommendation algorithm can leave it on. This is the optimal outcome that actually serves everyone’s personal goals for using these…

Instagram and Facebook both have such features. They’re hidden, though. With Instagram you tap the logo in the top middle of the app and choose “Following”. With Facebook it’s hidden away under the “Feeds” section in the app.

I’d love for there to be an option to have them as default. It’s obvious ($$$) why they won’t do that unless forced to by regulators.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#133

Post by mrits »

jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

[flagged]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#134

Post by schnitzelstoat »

Aurornis wrote: post #120
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody. I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

Absolutely wild that we’re seeing proposals to shut down parts of the internet and regulate when people can talk to each other on social platforms as a real suggestion on HN. I feel like we’ve completely lost the plot when we’re starting to invite government partial Internet shutdowns as a good idea. This is a totalitarian government play.

I can only imagine these people have never experienced such censorship.

Maybe they'll feel differently when they have to upload their ID and face scan (which later gets leaked) just to be able to read a recipe for beer or whatever.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#135

Post by shevy-java »

I do not buy this "holy knight war" by the EU at all.

It also makes no real sense to me.

Nothing against US mega-corporations paying fins, mind you, but I equally do not trust the EU bureaucrats either. There has to be a limit to both what politicians can do, what corporations can do and what bureaucrats can do, while retaining a democratic base system at all times. If you go against addictive design, then why not against ALL ads? I don't want to see any ads. Ublock origin made me change my mind here - I literally see no reason as to why I would ever want to burden my brain cells with irrelevant content.

This is a bit different to website layout though. I equally fail to see why the EU should meta-regulate what is permissive in regards to design and what is not. Why would I have to accept any random EU bureaucrat here? If a user interface sucks, I'd rather expect ublock origin to kill it off. This could also be community maintained. No need for the EU to waste taxpayers money. After the EU wants to sniff for age data and then also declared its holy war against VPNs, I do not trust anything coming from Brussels. Even less so with Ms. Leyen in charge - can't the anti-corruption offices in Germany get rid of such lobbyists?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#136

Post by phtrivier »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

Of course it's easy: such decisions were taken _before_ the feeds where algorithmically built.

You rely on unambigous, "physical" properties of the videos.

There is a physical property of all the videos: the time of publication.

There is a physical property of all the channels: did you subscribe to it, or not ?

So, you show, in (reverse) chronological order of publication, the list of videos published by the channels you subscribed to.

Now, of course, a brand new user would have no subscription - you show them a search box.

But then, now, your search algorithm has to weight the various channels that match - but your algo can be relatively transparent, relatively auditable, and the same for all users (unless given explicit preferences, and of course national laws, etc, etc...)

I'm sorry, but, I have a "subscriptions" page in youtube or substack, and they're chronological, and they show me what I want to watch. You keep that.

There is a "home" page in both service that is algoritmically built, and they show me crap that the algo want me to watch. You get rid of that.

Do this, and I can consider you a "neutral" actor, and accept that you shift the blame to content producer.

Or, keep the algo feed, but don't take money from advertiser when I watch yet another flat earther video because YOU decided it was trending.

If you want to decide what I watch, and make money from that decision - congrats, you are an editor. You get the earnings, and the responsibility.

Please don't tell me, with a straight face, that the people who build the algo don't "decide" what I watch. If they want to tweak the algo to downgrade the flamewars and outrage and conspiracy theories and violence and abuse, they can. They do not want to, for business reasons. [1]

That's fair, up to a point - we need publications with editors that agree on having "edgy" content. I'm not advocating for blanket censorship.

I did not like social network preventing me from _sharing_ articles about Biden's son laptop (this was actually beyond the law, but somehow they managed to find the resources and programmers to implement _that_, because, at the time, the execs where cozying with a different administration.)

I'm advocating for "accepting your responsibility as an editor".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Haugen#October_5,_2021...

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#137

Post by Aurornis »

alkonaut wrote: post #122
HPsquared wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no going back to the 2010 internet unless you confiscate everyone's phones.

Not sure what confiscation would accomplish that regulation couldn’t? I mean we’re all aware that if regulators target TikTok then a new app would pop up and take its place. But the thing about regulation is that it doesn’t need to be water tight. You can just target a small handful of large players and it will improve the situation in practice. It doesn’t matter if 998/1000 apps use addictive feeds if the largest tw…

It’s naive to think that regulation is going to cover the entire global internet.

If you regulated domestic companies out of existence, global options would pop up in their place. You could try to block them all in app stores but people would go to the web views.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#138

Post by wackget »

Aurornis wrote: post #120
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody. I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

Absolutely wild that we’re seeing proposals to shut down parts of the internet and regulate when people can talk to each other on social platforms as a real suggestion on HN. I feel like we’ve completely lost the plot when we’re starting to invite government partial Internet shutdowns as a good idea. This is a totalitarian government play.

[dead]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#139

Post by shevy-java »

jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

That rationale never convinced me.

Smoking has definite physiological effects. Molecules bind to receptors or neurons and initiate cascades/responses.

I don't see this with user interface in a browser at all. IF you wish to reason for that, why are regular ads allowed? They piss me off. Why do I have to see them? They cause my brain an addiction to want to buy crappy products. So why is there no ban here?

Let's face it - the EU is on a path of "Minority Report" here.

> I think the EU and other jurisdictions should really look beyond just limiting this stuff to kids

Yeah they try to restrict what we can do. We oldschool people call this fascism. See the EU trying to destroy VPN. And this is a meta-strategy we see here - many lobbyists are activated and try to "sync" laws that never made any sense to as many countries as possible. I see where corruption happens. And I don't buy the "we protect kids" fake lie for a moment.

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