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I'm going back to writing code by hand

blog.k10s.dev

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Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#131

Post by IanCal »

baddash wrote: post #76

I've set a few rules for working with coding agents: 1. If I use a coding agent to generate code, it should be something I am absolutely confident I can code correctly myself given the time (gun to my head test). 2. If it isn't, I can't move on until I completely understand what it is that has been generated, such that I would be able to recreate it myself. 3. I can create debt (I believe this is being called Cogniti…

This is fine if it’s more enjoyable for you, that’s what’s important in personal projects most of the time.

But we don’t follow the same things for dependencies, work of colleagues, external services, all the layers down to the silicon when trying to work.

Why is AI suddenly different?

We just have to do this by risk and reward. What’s the downside if it’s wrong, and how likely is an error to be found in testing and review? What is the benefit gained if it’s all fine? This is the same for libraries and external services.

A complex financial set of rules in a non-updatable crypto contract with no testing?

A viewer for your internal log data to visualise something?

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#132

Post by cultofmetatron »

the ship has sailed on my handcoding at work. the AI is producing stuff thats more bulletproof than what I can do in the same timeframe and if my competitors are using it, the pressure to ship is that much higher.

Personally, I've taken the time its freed up to spend more time on mathacademy and reading more theory oriented books on data structures and algorithms. AI coding systems are at their best when paired with someone with broad knowledge. knowing what to ask for and knowing the vocabulary to be specific about what you want to be built is going to be a much more valuable job skill going forward.

One example is a small AI based learning system I have been developing in my free time to help me learn. the mvp stored an entire knowledge graph and progress in markdown files. being an engineer, I knew this wouldn't scale so once I proved the concept viable, I moved everything into sqlite with a graphdb. then I decided to wrap some parts of teh functionality in to rust and put everything behind a small rust layer with the progress tracking logic still being in python.

someone with no knowlege of graph databases or dependncy graphs or heuristics would not be able to build this even if they had AI. they simply don't know what they dont' know and AI wont' save you there.

That said, I think its important to also spend time in the dirt. I've recently started pickign up zig as my NO AI langauge just to keep. those skills sharp.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#133

Post by cassianoleal »

dathanb82 wrote: post #82
baddash wrote: post #76

I've set a few rules for working with coding agents: 1. If I use a coding agent to generate code, it should be something I am absolutely confident I can code correctly myself given the time (gun to my head test). 2. If it isn't, I can't move on until I completely understand what it is that has been generated, such that I would be able to recreate it myself. 3. I can create debt (I believe this is being called Cogniti…

I’ve also heard it being called “comprehension debt,” which I like a little more because I think it’s more precise: the specific debt being accrued is exactly a lack of comprehension of the code.

I think it’s both in fact.

Comprehension debt just sounds like there are things you don’t (yet) understand.

Cognition debt means your lack of understanding compounds and the cognition “space” required to clear it increases accordingly.

An increasing comprehension debt that can be paid off one bit at a time within reasonable cognition space takes linear time to clear.

Cognition debt takes exponential time to clear the more of it you have. If it reaches a point where you simply don’t have the space for the cognition overhead required to understand the problem, you probably need to start over from your specifications.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#134

Post by oblio »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #132

the ship has sailed on my handcoding at work. the AI is producing stuff thats more bulletproof than what I can do in the same timeframe and if my competitors are using it, the pressure to ship is that much higher. Personally, I've taken the time its freed up to spend more time on mathacademy and reading more theory oriented books on data structures and algorithms. AI coding systems are at their best when paired with…

> the ship has sailed on my handcoding at work.

I'm really curious if we'll seesaw once AI costs go up 10x.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#135

Post by jfim »

Philip-J-Fry wrote: post #123
snowe2010 wrote: post #34

> The other change is simpler: I'm doing the design work myself, by hand, before any code gets written. Not a vague doc. Concrete interfaces, message types, ownership rules. That’s the hard part of coding. If you have an architecture then writing the code is dead simple. If you aren’t writing the code you aren’t going to notice when you architected an API that allows nulls but then your database doesn’t. Or that it d…

Yes, I think there's 2 kinds of developer. Those who think the code is the hard part, and those that don't. The developers that thing coding is hard are the ones that absolutely love AI coding. It's changed their world because things they used to find hard are now easy. Those that think coding is easy don't have such an easy time because coding to them is all about the abstractions, the maintainability and extensibil…

I'd say there's another camp: the camp of people who know that code isn't the hard part, but that it's still time consuming to write code. AI coding is pretty useful for that, when you can nail the design but you just need a set of hands to implement it.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#136

Post by layer8 »

brabel wrote: post #103
baddash wrote: post #76

I've set a few rules for working with coding agents: 1. If I use a coding agent to generate code, it should be something I am absolutely confident I can code correctly myself given the time (gun to my head test). 2. If it isn't, I can't move on until I completely understand what it is that has been generated, such that I would be able to recreate it myself. 3. I can create debt (I believe this is being called Cogniti…

I was trying to follow similar rules, until one day I had to solve a hard mathematical problem. Claude is a phd level mathematician, I am not. I, however, know exactly the properties of the desired solution and how to test it’s correct. So I decided to keep Claude’s solution over my basic, naive one. I mentioned that in the pull request and everyone agreed that was the right call. Would you open exceptions like that…

How did you test that the solution is correct? Is the set of possible inputs a low-ish finite number?

Normally with mathematical problems you have to prove the solution correct. Testing is not sufficient, unless you can test all possible inputs exhaustively.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#138

Post by Towaway69 »

rane wrote: post #66
xantronix wrote: post #16

So you're not actually writing code by hand? I'm very confused by the difference between the title and the conclusion here.

The point was to come up with a sensationalistic headline that HN eats up and post flies to the front page.

I wonder whether the title was generated/suggested by an AI?

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#139

Post by IanCal »

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #106
brabel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to follow similar rules, until one day I had to solve a hard mathematical problem. Claude is a phd level mathematician, I am not. I, however, know exactly the properties of the desired solution and how to test it’s correct. So I decided to keep Claude’s solution over my basic, naive one. I mentioned that in the pull request and everyone agreed that was the right call. Would you open exceptions like that…

> Claude is a phd level mathematician Unfortunately, it is not, and many of its attempts at mathematical proofs have major flaws. You shouldn't trust its proofs unless you are already able to evaluate them--which I think is pretty much all the OP is saying.

Trust isn’t a binary, and I can trust things I don’t understand enough that I can use them. OP was talking about needing to understand, which is quite a bit above the level of being able to validate enough to use for a task.

Re: I'm going back to writing code by hand

#140

Post by layer8 »

dathanb82 wrote: post #82
baddash wrote: post #76

I've set a few rules for working with coding agents: 1. If I use a coding agent to generate code, it should be something I am absolutely confident I can code correctly myself given the time (gun to my head test). 2. If it isn't, I can't move on until I completely understand what it is that has been generated, such that I would be able to recreate it myself. 3. I can create debt (I believe this is being called Cogniti…

I’ve also heard it being called “comprehension debt,” which I like a little more because I think it’s more precise: the specific debt being accrued is exactly a lack of comprehension of the code.

I like that too. However, “cognitive debt” points to the possibility of cognitive overload, that the code can become so complex and inscrutable that it may become impossible to comprehend. “Comprehension debt” sounds a bit weaker in that respect, that it’s just a matter of catching up with one’s comprehension.
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