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The Vatican's Website in Latin

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Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#131

Post by dhosek »

bombcar wrote: post #99
dhosek wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I follow a couple Jesuit brothers on Blue Sky who work at the Vatican Observatory. One of them was tapped to receive an award for another astronomer at a ceremony she couldn’t attend. Beforehand, he said that he would be doing this but couldn’t name the astronomer but said that it was someone well-known and I realized that the only contemporary astronomers I could name were either Jesuits or Neil DeGrasse Tyson. (I d…

It’s said when they found the first uncomplicated Jesuit they made him Pope ;)

Although he’s still pretty complicated. I’m reminded somewhat of a Franciscan sister friend of mine who runs a blog (and until recently, a podcast) called “Messy Jesus Business” which leans into how complicated the whole being Christian thing can get.

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#132

Post by bombcar »

dhosek wrote: post #131
bombcar wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s said when they found the first uncomplicated Jesuit they made him Pope ;)

Although he’s still pretty complicated. I’m reminded somewhat of a Franciscan sister friend of mine who runs a blog (and until recently, a podcast) called “Messy Jesus Business” which leans into how complicated the whole being Christian thing can get.

There's one of those "midway" memes with a peasant on one side, saying "God is Love" and Aquinas on the other, saying "God is Love" and the middle is a bunch of Jesuit complications. :)

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#133

Post by riffraff »

gattilorenz wrote: post #80
TonyStr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is very fascinating. Do you have some source on this that you could share? IIRC Dante wrote in vernacular Italian which was uncommon at the time, presumably to make his texts more approachable by common people?

If I had to take a guess, I would say he heard it in a lecture by Prof. Alessandro Barbero, same as I did :) But I think the source is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_vulgari_eloquentia In the Italian Wiki page, the "constructed nature" of latin is hinted at; it doesn't seem to be present in the English wiki. Update: It's indeed in the book, at the end of the 1st chapter of the 1st book: 3 There also exists an…

indeed, Prof Barbero it is! Good job digging up the reference :)

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#134

Post by flumes_whims_ »

ks2048 wrote: post #36

They have 10 languages linked from their home page ( https://www.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html ). Latin and Chinese are the only two that don't have the home page same design. Maybe they've laid-off some of their translators.

Canon law used to require all documents to be published in Latin. That has changed rather recently.

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#135

Post by zdragnar »

dyauspitr wrote: post #76
zdragnar wrote: post #2

I'm somewhat surprised it's still up, given the rather firm refusal by Francis to allow the Latin mass at churches that wanted it in the States.

It very quickly turns mass into just repeating sounds without any way to internalize any of what you’re saying. There’s a bunch of stuff about humility, contrition, gratefulness etc that they want people to internalize.

I don't think any of the churches wanting to do the Tridentine Mass in Latin exclusively, they just wanted to offer it occasionally (the ones I recall anyway).

Going to Mass isn't something you just do for yourself. You do it to give glory to God, in remembrance of Jesus, and participate in communion with the Holy Spirit.

The Tridentine Mass in Latin is a way to reconnect with the apostolic lineage of the Church, the saints and the generations who came before. I can say with certainty that even modern mass in vernacular is nothing more than a bunch of mumbled repeating sounds to most people in the pews who zone out while they attend once or twice a year for Christmas and Easter.

If you've been to an Assyrian Orthodox mass, you might hear part or all of it in Aramaic. It's quite the experience, especially with the icons of the saints surrounding the community, adding a bit of a transcendental nature that is sorely missing in more "modern" church experiences.

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#136

Post by dyauspitr »

zdragnar wrote: post #135
dyauspitr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It very quickly turns mass into just repeating sounds without any way to internalize any of what you’re saying. There’s a bunch of stuff about humility, contrition, gratefulness etc that they want people to internalize.

I don't think any of the churches wanting to do the Tridentine Mass in Latin exclusively, they just wanted to offer it occasionally (the ones I recall anyway). Going to Mass isn't something you just do for yourself. You do it to give glory to God, in remembrance of Jesus, and participate in communion with the Holy Spirit. The Tridentine Mass in Latin is a way to reconnect with the apostolic lineage of the Church, the…

Yes, I get that but most people are honestly atheist, including I believe a huge majority of Catholics and they go to mass for the community, connections and as a weekly family ritual.

From that perspective, what you’re saying maybe makes sense and that people aren’t really there to internalize the message, but are there for a spectacle. When my parents were growing up until about the 1960s or 70s, I believe all masses all over the world in Catholic churches were all done in Latin.

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#137

Post by nephihaha »

ks2048 wrote: post #124
nephihaha wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised Russian isn't on there.

If this is correct, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country There's only 717,500 Catholics in Russia. Although, careful with this table - it says there's 660,439 in Saudi Arabia - which must be foreign workers, ie not Arabic speakers. A big one missing is Korean.

Russian isn't just spoken within Russia, of course, but across many parts of the former USSR as a first and second language, and by a major Diaspora. A significant number learnt Russian during the Cold War in central and eastern Europe, and even Mongolia.

It doesn't have the prestige it once had, for reasons we know very well, but it is still a significant language, and one of the main official languages of the UN.

The Vatican has expressed interest in the region for some time and has tried to broker ecumenical deals with the Russian Orthodox Church not just missionary efforts. So yes, I am surprised not to see it there.

Yes, I agree about Korean. I could think of some other languages in Africa and Asia.

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#138

Post by golem14 »

cwnyth wrote: post #113
golem14 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former pupil that took 7+years of Latin, I think the probability of actually reading latin texts fluently today would have been orders of magnitude higher had instruction been coupled with Ørberg. I still want to be able to read hobbitus ille, but no thanks to my Latin classes (and I think I had decent teachers).

Sure, Ørberg coupled with other books is fine enough. I do think his basic idea (a text that gets progressively more grammatically complex) is important and good, but not without exercises, grammatical elucidation, drills, etc. Also, you're much better off reading The Hobbit in English. The Latin translation is known to be less than superb.

Thanks for the hint on The Hobbit.

For me, the takeaway was that finding the Ørberg book later in life made me WANT to go out and read some latin texts. The Latin instruction in grammar school did absolutely NOTHING in this regard, sad to say.

I feel pretty strongly that treating Latin as a living language would have enabled me to go much farther, without necessarily spending more time on it.

As an aside - we probably agree more than we disagree, but I feel talking about the importance of drilling grammar just recalls the Monty Python sketch from Life of Brian, and not in a good way :)

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#139

Post by golem14 »

zombot wrote: post #126
cwnyth wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Ørberg coupled with other books is fine enough. I do think his basic idea (a text that gets progressively more grammatically complex) is important and good, but not without exercises, grammatical elucidation, drills, etc. Also, you're much better off reading The Hobbit in English. The Latin translation is known to be less than superb.

Harrius Potter et philosophi lapis OTOH I found a blast to read. The translator is quite resourceful finding Latin names for all kinds of modern stuff. Visne ranam socolatam?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Visne+ranam+socolatam

has a delightful answer in the AI section, and the two top results are in this thread.

Since the AI section does not trigger, here is mine

   "AI Overview               

   Minime, gratias tibi. Ranae socolatae non mihi placent!

   (No, thank you. I do not like chocolate frogs!)

   Note: This is a phrase from conversational Latin exercises, sometimes appearing in materials like Rosetta Stone.
   "

Re: The Vatican's Website in Latin

#140

Post by ekjhgkejhgk »

watwut wrote: post #72
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated to Latin. I speak four languages, each learned in a totally different way. The fastest that I've learned a language was by buying a grammar and spending hours on end doing grammar exercises. It doesn't just work by "traditional academic metrics", it works and fast. That's because it's faster to learn something if you're explicitly shown the pattern and then you do repetition, than if you just do the repetit…

As someone who also learned multiple languages, the most typical result if grammar focused classes is that you cant use the language at all for years. And yes it is consistent outcome for majority of the students. Like, outcome of language classes you describe are people who cant watch movies, cant listen to podcasts, cant talk with natives ... but are decent in solving grammar exercises. And to add insult to injury,…

I suspect that what you describe is the outcome for people who half-arse it. People who have no motivation and are doing it because the teacher says. But for those people, any methodology has low success rate.
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