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Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

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Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#131

Post by entrox »

baq wrote: post #130
lelanthran wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that I could eventually ask ChatGPT or whatever about obscure things in my field, and get useful output (of the "trust but verify" sort), is exciting. That's your idea, not the one they are going with. Their idea is that you pay a fee to access any information that was freely available. Your idea is tearing down of fences, their idea is gatekeeping. The two ideas are incompatible.

Their idea is being able to get answers to questions which were difficult to answer before[0]. Of course they want to get paid for it. The information wasn’t available easily and not always[1] freely. [0] among other things… [1] more like ‘often not at all’

> Of course they want to get paid for it.

So should the original authors, no? That is, getting a share of that payment.

Something akin to the German GEMA could work, an entity that levies a usage fee on behalf of all copyright holders and re-distributes to its members, but on a global scale.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#132

Post by inetknght »

entrox wrote: post #131
baq wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their idea is being able to get answers to questions which were difficult to answer before[0]. Of course they want to get paid for it. The information wasn’t available easily and not always[1] freely. [0] among other things… [1] more like ‘often not at all’

> Of course they want to get paid for it. So should the original authors, no? That is, getting a share of that payment. Something akin to the German GEMA could work, an entity that levies a usage fee on behalf of all copyright holders and re-distributes to its members, but on a global scale.

> So should the original authors, no? That is, getting a share of that payment.

Should they? Yes. Will they?

Well, do LLM model builders pay for any copyrighted work so far?

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#133

Post by breezybottom »

indigo945 wrote: post #99
bakugo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe it makes sense for the government to fund libraries that almost nobody uses because they'd rather ask ChatGPT?

People are already not using libraries because they'd rather rot their brains on TikTok than read a book. (Also, for information lookup, the internet and search engines exist, and have for a while now.) This has no actual causal relation.

Weird that my local library is always full.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#134

Post by soco »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #41
BrenBarn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the idea that you might have to eventually pay an AI company a large amount of money to ask ChatGPT such a question, while the library itself has lost funding?

Library funding is a political stance that has only imaginary connection to whether people pay to ask things of ChatGPT. People can pay to talk to an AI and also government can fund libraries.

The government can then soon "optimize" and fund exactly one library.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#136

Post by breezybottom »

woctordho wrote: post #68
altmanaltman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is any of that legal? Can you just take books from the library and then scan and upload digital copies? How do you deal with the ethics of this personally, stealing to make it easier for AI to steal so AI gets better? Does calling yourself a "researcher" make you feel like its actually something worthwhile you're doing?

Copyright is a property right, and property right is what we call a bourgeois legal right. It will cease to exist as productive force like AI develops.

Imagine thinking Sam Altman and Elon Musk are your comrades.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#137

Post by xtracto »

x-complexity wrote: post #92

Modern copyright duration is the actual problem: It should've never been longer than what was outlined in the Statute of Anne. (28~14 years) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne The Lord of the Rings should be in the public domain. The original Harry Potter book should've been in the public domain. Star Wars should've been in the public domain. Everything from before 1998 should've been in the public domain…

In my view duration is not the problem, but copyright itself is. Nobody should expect to be "passively" paid for a job/effort made at a past point in time. You work 40 hours this week, you get paid 40 hours at whatever your rate.

Authors should use other ways to charge for their 40/80 hours work, and when released it should be in the public domain.

Scientists have learned to do it (by getting tenured or postdocs), im sure other can do it.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#138

Post by breezybottom »

egorfine wrote: post #107
CoastalCoder wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but wouldn't this LLM behavior be more akin to a human re-publishing an entire book to some third party, in exchange for money?

The whole world would not be possible without people re-publishing parts of books to some third party in exchange for money. Think textbooks. Laws. Medicine. What's the difference? The size of quotation? The exact wording? Surely re-publishing an entire book word for word is piracy. What if I rewrite the whole book slightly? What if I publish just a part? A rewritten part? Where do we draw the line with humans and wh…

Your questions would be quickly answered by looking at the relevant style guides. Any university will also have webpage about citations: APA, Chicago, MLA, etc.

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#139

Post by Tangurena2 »

bakugo wrote: post #96
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Library funding is a political stance that has only imaginary connection to whether people pay to ask things of ChatGPT. People can pay to talk to an AI and also government can fund libraries.

Do you believe it makes sense for the government to fund libraries that almost nobody uses because they'd rather ask ChatGPT?

Libraries in my state also lend out tools.

A recent executive order prohibits libraries (among other non-profits) from processing US passport applications. While county clerks (in my state) along with a small number of post office locations also offer this service, the libraries were doing it for free as opposed to charging $50-ish (like the post office or county clerks).

Why might the passport issue be important? The SAVE Act (passed the House of Representatives last year and sitting before the Senate) only permits 4 identification items to register to vote for Federal elections:

1 - A US Passport (costs about $100 to renew, about $150 for first time).

2 - A US Military ID that has proof of US citizenship (CAC cards show this with a white background behind your name - yellow or blue for contractors or non-US citizens). IDs for retirees don't show citizenship.

3 - A REAL ID compliant driving license that has proof of US citizenship. Also called "Enhanced Driving License", on the front it has a US flag and the back looks like the page on your passport with those funny letters. Only 5 states offer this as an extra $30-40 on top of the regular driving license fee.

4 - A REAL ID compliant driving license/ID and certified birth certificate and the names must match exactly. This means that 74 million women who took their husbands' name will not be voting in Federal Elections. Also, no transgender people can vote.

The SAVE Act also requires voter registration agencies to send voter rolls to DHS every month. And every month DHS can throw people off the voter rolls with no warning, no notice nor recourse. One can easily imagine this being done right before elections where people who registered for the "wrong" political party will be thrown off the rolls after the deadline to register.

Project 2025 wants to repeal the 19th Amendment. Throwing 74 million women off the voter rolls is just a start.

Links:

SAVE Act text - https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/22/t...

https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/22/t...

Re: Alignment whack-a-mole: Finetuning activates recall of copyrighted books in LLMs

#140

Post by breezybottom »

glerk wrote: post #86

> Oh no!! Those strings of words belong to me!! Yeah, maybe it’s time to move on and find ways to benefit yourself and the rest of humanity outside of artificial monopolies and rent seeking. Copyright is dead.

I doubt that you work for free. Just because you don't value writing or journalism doesn't make it rent seeking.
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