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What can we gain by losing infinity?

quantamagazine.org

131–140 of 141 posts

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#131

I don’t understand, and I hope it’s just bad writing. Certainly you can build a branch of mathematics without an axiom of infinity, and that’s fine, it’s math over finite sets. However, an axiom of infinity is independent, it doesn’t contradict anything in standard formalizations, and so it doesn’t make sense to say “infinity is wrong”. He may think the axiom of infinity isn’t satisfied by our real physical world, bu…

Your response essentially assumes formalism - mathematics is a game with rules (axioms, inference rules, etc), and all rules are in themselves equally valid, it is just a question of whether the game they produce is playable (i.e. produces interesting or useful theorems). Formalism has no objection to infinities: the axiom of infinity is just another axiom, in itself as valid as any other-but one which produces a nea…

I think you're conflating opinions about when math is useful with opinions on the nature of math itself. Formalism does not assume that "all rules are equally valid". You can be a staunch formalist and yet still believe that X set of axioms are the only useful ones and everyone who assumes different axioms is wasting their time. You could be a formalist and still believe that the concept of infinity is leading math astray from useful math. Many of the differences you lay out seem to just be in people's opinion on which axioms are useful and which aren't. That's still formalism.

Setting that aside, it's very difficult for me to take non-formalist views of mathematics seriously. I strongly suspect that anyone who subscribes to those views has some deep-seated confusion in their heads.

> Platonism, which believes [mathematical objects] exist in some timeless realm beyond this physical universe

This is equivalent to formalism, except perhaps in how the mathematician feels about it. What could any possible difference be? In what way could it ever matter in the slightest whether something "really exists", if we define that to be so weak as to include "in some timeless realm beyond this universe"? Surely pink goblins "really exist" in this sense as well. With such a weak definition, the difference between your "really exists" and my "really exists" is purely emotional.

> Yet another view is conceptualism-mathematical objects really exist, but in the human mind.

You can be formalist and still argue about whether humans invented or discovered math. Beyond that, this is again just relying on the weakest possible definition of "really exists", with some added human-centric arrogance added in. Crows can count to 5; it's patently absurd to claim they are using something that is "not mathematics" or some completely alien form of mathematics that humans cannot access, because it's crow-brain math rather than human-brain math. This sounds like the Copenhangen Interpretation but for math: humans brains are magic! What are we doing? What are we talking about?

> This idea that some mathematical objects are in a philosophical sense “more real” than others is a big motivator of mathematical constructivism

Yet again, this is still formalism. Up until here, you've used the word "real" in such a weak tautological sense as to have no connection to our (or any possible) universe. But here, you've switched back to "real" meaning "having any bearing on our universe". So you're saying "constructivists consider different axioms useful than ZFC mathematicians do." More often they don't even really think about usefuless at all, it's just something that caught their interest and they decided to explore it.

There simply is no "non-formalist" mathematics.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#132
It's easy to think of infinite counting upwards as having to come to an end eventually, but what about dividing a thing down? Can we have smaller and smaller fractions until we have an infinity of tiny bits, or does it go on for so long there is a point when all of the bits are of size 0?

Anyways, I enjoyed reading the perspective of a mathematician on this.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#133
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response essentially assumes formalism - mathematics is a game with rules (axioms, inference rules, etc), and all rules are in themselves equally valid, it is just a question of whether the game they produce is playable (i.e. produces interesting or useful theorems). Formalism has no objection to infinities: the axiom of infinity is just another axiom, in itself as valid as any other-but one which produces a nea…

I think you're conflating opinions about when math is useful with opinions on the nature of math itself. Formalism does not assume that "all rules are equally valid". You can be a staunch formalist and yet still believe that X set of axioms are the only useful ones and everyone who assumes different axioms is wasting their time. You could be a formalist and still believe that the concept of infinity is leading math a…

> I think you're conflating opinions about when math is useful with opinions on the nature of math itself. Formalism does not assume that "all rules are equally valid"

I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying. Of course, a formalist will say that some rules are "more valid" in the sense that they produce more interesting or useful theorems. My point was, to a formalist, there is nothing more to be said about the validity of axioms than the value of the theorems they produce. Whereas, from certain other perspectives in the philosophy of mathematics, that is not the only grounds on which axioms can be judged.

> This is equivalent to formalism, except perhaps in how the mathematician feels about it. What could any possible difference be? In what way could it ever matter in the slightest whether something "really exists", if we define that to be so weak as to include "in some timeless realm beyond this universe"? Surely pink goblins "really exist" in this sense as well. With such a weak definition, the difference between your "really exists" and my "really exists" is purely emotional.

You sound like a logical positivist. And that's the issue – if your philosophical assumptions are positivist, then non-positivist philosophies of mathematics (and of anything else) simply aren't going to be intelligible to you. They can only make sense if you are at least willing to doubt for a moment your positivist assumptions.

> Crows can count to 5; it's patently absurd to claim they are using something that is "not mathematics" or some completely alien form of mathematics that humans cannot access, because it's crow-brain math rather than human-brain math. This sounds like the Copenhangen Interpretation but for math: humans brains are magic! What are we doing? What are we talking about?

Conceptualism claims that mathematics exists in the mind–but it doesn't claim necessarily only human minds. If animals have minds too, then mathematics can exist in animal minds as well, even if in a much more rudimentary form. I doubt any conceptualist would say, that if intelligent extraterrestrial life were discovered to exist, that their minds wouldn't contain mathematics simply because they are a different species from homo sapiens.

> So you're saying "constructivists consider different axioms useful than ZFC mathematicians do." More often they don't even really think about usefuless at all, it's just something that caught their interest and they decided to explore it.

There are different types of constructivists: (a) those who have a philosophical commitment to constructivism; (b) those who are interested in constructivism for practical reasons (related to computer science); (c) those who are just interested in it as an interesting mathematical system to explore. You can be (b) or (c) without needing any philosophical commitments at all, and they are completely compatible with a formalist philosophy of mathematics. And, quite possibly, the majority working in constructive mathematics today are (b) or (c) not (a). But, historically, the founders of constructive mathematics (e.g. Brouwer) were very much (a) not (b) or (c).

> There simply is no "non-formalist" mathematics.

I think you are conflating mathematics with the philosophy of mathematics – they are two distinct disciplines. Disagreements about the philosophy of mathematics make no direct difference to mathematics itself; at the margins, they can influence judgements about which problems are interesting – although, even there, a person can find ultrafinitist mathematics interesting without needing any philosophical commitment to an ultrafinitist philosophy of mathematics.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#134
Reality is an infinite expanse of finite things.

Finite unbounded admits all the natural numbers. Allowing infinity to represent no-finite-limit, as apposed to trying to shoehorn actualized infinities (general real numbers inclusive of “unconstructible” “non-uniquely specifiable” numbers, and “concrete” higher-order Cantor cardinalities, whatever that could mean) into local structures.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#135
post #122
post #73

My favorite math paper is "Is 10^10^10 a Finite Number?" by David van Dantzig. It lies more on the side of philosophy, so many can understand it easily. I first learned about it many years ago from Van Bendegem's list of strict finitism papers, and I would recommend that list for anyone interested in learning more about strict finitism. For my personal opinion, strict finitism provides a richer field of study than po…

2^512 is the number of distinct values of 512 bits ... it sure seems to succeed in existing. SHA-512 is a cryptographic hash that depends on that.

> 2^512 exists in binary notation, but not in unary notation (tally marks, successor function).

Sorry, but this is incoherent nonsense. The existence of a number doesn't depend on its representation ... but we can in fact represent any integer 0 > SHA-512 depends on the fact that computers cannot feasibly increment to 2^512.

non sequitur

> A loop cannot feasibly run 2^512 times.

non sequitur

> Strict finitists emphasize those distinctions when they say 2^512 doesn't exist.

Cranks.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#136
post #135
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2^512 is the number of distinct values of 512 bits ... it sure seems to succeed in existing. SHA-512 is a cryptographic hash that depends on that.

> 2^512 exists in binary notation, but not in unary notation (tally marks, successor function). Sorry, but this is incoherent nonsense. The existence of a number doesn't depend on its representation ... but we can in fact represent any integer 0 > SHA-512 depends on the fact that computers cannot feasibly increment to 2^512. non sequitur > A loop cannot feasibly run 2^512 times. non sequitur > Strict finitists emphas…

I don't mean to come off as a crank. I'd like to clarify the strict finitist position in a sensible way (what they mean is that 2^512 unary notation doesn't fit in this universe, and similarly 2^(2^512) in binary notation doesn't fit in this universe and thus "doesn't exist"), but clearly I fail at meeting your requirements, sorry.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#137
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not from “that half of something had a value”, but from “that half of any thing has a value”. If you accept that every natural number has a successor which is a natural number, and no two natural numbers have the same successor, and that there’s no loops (e.g. by saying that there’s a total order on natural numbers and that any natural number is less than its successor), then there can’t be a finite collection which…

> how do you want to talk about things true of all natural numbers then There's an entire branch of math for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

I’m aware of constructive math. You still have the type of natural numbers in that?

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2^512 exists in binary notation, but not in unary notation (tally marks, successor function). Sorry, but this is incoherent nonsense. The existence of a number doesn't depend on its representation ... but we can in fact represent any integer 0 > SHA-512 depends on the fact that computers cannot feasibly increment to 2^512. non sequitur > A loop cannot feasibly run 2^512 times. non sequitur > Strict finitists emphas…

I don't mean to come off as a crank. I'd like to clarify the strict finitist position in a sensible way (what they mean is that 2^512 unary notation doesn't fit in this universe, and similarly 2^(2^512) in binary notation doesn't fit in this universe and thus "doesn't exist"), but clearly I fail at meeting your requirements, sorry.

Sigh. There was no mention of 2^(2^512),only the set [0, 2^512), each value of which can be represented with a different configuration of 512 bits in any computer (or storage medium) "in this universe". That these values cannot be enumerated within a small amount of time is completely irrelevant (other than that SHA-512 cannot be reversed in practice, which as I said is a non sequitur) ... 2^512 is quite finite, even for finitists.

And "doesn't fit in this universe" is unformalizable crank nonsense.

Over and out.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#139
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to come off as a crank. I'd like to clarify the strict finitist position in a sensible way (what they mean is that 2^512 unary notation doesn't fit in this universe, and similarly 2^(2^512) in binary notation doesn't fit in this universe and thus "doesn't exist"), but clearly I fail at meeting your requirements, sorry.

Sigh. There was no mention of 2^(2^512),only the set [0, 2^512), each value of which can be represented with a different configuration of 512 bits in any computer (or storage medium) "in this universe". That these values cannot be enumerated within a small amount of time is completely irrelevant (other than that SHA-512 cannot be reversed in practice, which as I said is a non sequitur ) ... 2^512 is quite finite, eve…

A few formalizations exist: bounded arithmetic, internal set theory, Nelson's predicative arithmetic.

From Buss's thesis "Bounded Arithmetic": "However, a recursive function may be computable only in a theoretical sense: the time required to compute it may be far larger than the lifespan of the universe. We are more interested in feasibly computable functions, which can be calculated by today's (or tomorrow's) computers."

And then he goes and defines an arithmetic hierarchy for polynomial functions.

Re: What can we gain by losing infinity?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the late 1800s, Georg Cantor and other mathematicians showed that the infinite really can exist. I think, as I understand it, the objection is this. The proposition that infinity is "real", and there are actually infinite (not just very many) things.

> The proposition that infinity is "real" As far as I can tell, numbers aren't real either. "Twelve" isn't a thing that exists in itself in the physical universe, it's an abstraction over some features of reality. "Infinity" is another abstraction, but it's not the same kind of abstraction as "Twelve". It's a further step. All mathematics is abstractions, layered on each other. See also "God created the integers, all…

Agreed, but I can say "there are 102 keys on this keyboard" or "there is 105ml of coffee in this cup" and that meaningfully describes reality to some extent.

"there are infinite stars" does not meaningfully describe reality. For a number of reasons, not least of which would be how we would verify that - we cannot count the stars if they are infinite because we would need an infinite amount of time to do it. We can't shortcut this process, either, any method of counting stars that allowed us to count more stars more quickly would still run into the problem that it would take infinite time to count them.

We can never know if something "real" is actually infinite, or if it's just very large. But disallowing infinities from our concept of the universe does do cool things; we no longer get the endless "in an infinite universe, everything possible must happen an infinite number of times, so therefore must be happening" arguments. The universe is not infinite, or if it is infinite we cannot measure that or confirm it, so isn't happening unless probability says it will happen in a merely very large universe.

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