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To my students

ozark.hendrix.edu

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Re: To my students

#131

Post by nikcub »

tptacek wrote: post #11

"I do not and will not use LLMs, in any form, for any purpose. Although LLMs are fascinating from a purely technical perspective, I refuse to participate in or contribute to such systems that are built on massive exploitation of human labor and make profligate use of scarce resources. I also don't think they are actually very good for a lot of the applications people seem excited about. Even in cases where LLMs are t…

* real programmers write assembly, not FORTRAN

* real programmers manage memory, it's a craft

* real programmers don't drag and drop

* real programmers don't use intellisense

* real programmers don't need stack overflow

* real programmers don't tab-complete

* real programmers don't need copilot

* real programmers don't use llms <- you are here

Re: To my students

#132

Post by lo_zamoyski »

godelski wrote: post #107
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a flippant reply. Programming is a practical skill, and its most common expression is industrial or commercial, not academic proofs of concept. The post addresses students who will enter industry; that's the focus of the professor's own post . And I sympathize with many points being made here. However, the point of refactoring code is somewhat odd and detached from the real life constraints of programming in t…

> It's messy, subject to commercial pressures, to a hierarchy of values that doesn't place "refactoring" at the top of the list. And why would it? Probably because it's a good way to be more profitable. Code that's easier to understand is easier to: maintain, generate new features for, fix bugs, onboard new engineers, etc Code that's well written: executes faster (saving computational costs), scales better, has highe…

Save us the patronizing tone.

I am well aware of stupidity in industry. However, I am also wise enough to recognize the opposite error. (I myself have academic tendencies and a background aligned with that. I have chosen jobs that payed less, because the subject matter was more interesting for me. I'm not some vulgar, money-chasing techbro here.) The via media demands that we recognize the distinction between general truths and practical realities. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, yes, properly refactored code is easier to maintain, easier to read, easier to change, and theoretically, commercially preferable. It also makes programming more satisfying, helping retention. But that describes a feature of such code. It doesn't tell us what the right course of action is in a particular situation. The notion that refactoring is unconditionally the right course of action when code is not in some ideal state is simply wrong. It really does depend on the situation. Sometimes, refactoring is the wrong thing to do.

I'm not making some outrageous claim here. This follows from basic truths about the nature of what it means to be practical, and if industry is anything, it is practical.

Re: To my students

#133

Post by hgoel »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #114
hgoel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my computer engineering undergrad ~8 years ago in the US, an ethics class was mandatory, but IIRC the CS curriculum did not have it, despite both leading to similar careers. My memory may be wrong though. Edit: they do seem to have one now, so either I remembered wrong or they added it. Edit 2: I remember enjoying my ethics class, we covered some of the usual examples, and also things like basic contract negotiati…

> But I think I still didn't register that these concerns were real at that time. It was easy to believe that I wouldn't be working on anything that impactful. This did change once I started work. The case study i mentioned (it may not have been bhopal, but it was definitely based on something that happened in india) stands out for me because it really hit home about the impact and seriousness of some decisions we co…

I was thinking about it differently. I understood the potential harm on paper, but I think I was still pretty immature. I thought I would be willing to put aside morals (eg working for companies like Palantir) to work on interesting cutting edge things.

But when I started working and found myself doing equally cutting edge research, but genuinely for the public benefit, I realized I definitely wouldn't be comfortable with putting aside my morals like that. Maybe I didn't really believe this was an option back then.

Re: To my students

#134

Post by Elyon_Compute »

weirdo-kido wrote: post #126

I use LLM, but LLM need a constraint, that human jobs to make constraint rules. why? because at the end, human use the software products. LLM can review a code when human input the prompt to review the code, LLM can pretend to be a customer when human input the prompt. My thoughts is LLM like big library, thats why human need to decide the constraint, human can say no when LLM give the code. Human can move fast to br…

[dead]

Re: To my students

#135

Post by 2ndorderthought »

lukan wrote: post #105
nopinsight wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the author’s earlier essay: “A good way to describe myself is as a generative AI vegetarian. You can find a fuller explanation—and many, many links—at the above essay by Sean Boots, which I agree with almost 100%.” —- Given the capabilities of upcoming LLMs, I suspect that by mid-2027, most competent companies, outside specific niches, will not hire and might fire any non-senior “generative AI vegetarian” softwa…

I have actually no idea what you want to say with “generative AI vegetarian.” You mean people who refuse using LLM's? edit, I see, a new slang: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47928885

Probably another viral marketing campaign to further pressure those meta employees to have their in office flatulence levels monitored with probes as they are pressured to vibe code more features faster.

Re: To my students

#136

Post by remywang »

cdfalcon wrote: post #19

There's something so off-putting about academics giving industry advice when they haven't spent a day working as an engineer at a company. > Care deeply about your craft. Refactor code until it is clear and elegant. Write good documentation for other humans to read. Have the courage to go slowly, especially when everyone else is telling you that you need to go fast and cut corners. Outside of the bit on avoiding cutt…

He is not giving advice to the industry, he is giving advice to aspiring programmers and computer scientists. He has no experience in industry, but has produced lots of high quality software and research.

Re: To my students

#137

Post by rowanG077 »

thundergolfer wrote: post #47
cdfalcon wrote: post #19

There's something so off-putting about academics giving industry advice when they haven't spent a day working as an engineer at a company. > Care deeply about your craft. Refactor code until it is clear and elegant. Write good documentation for other humans to read. Have the courage to go slowly, especially when everyone else is telling you that you need to go fast and cut corners. Outside of the bit on avoiding cutt…

Completely agree that it's off-putting. The author indeed has only ever worked in academia per his LinkedIn. But disagree that this is a path to unemployment. At work we go very fast and yet I think fast is compatible with each of those points, just not in all situations. Marc Brooker, distinguished eng at AWS, gives much more useful advice for industry, as you'd expect given his almost 30 years in industry. https://…

From that guys LinkedIn he was in academia and then at AWS. I guess it's better than the professor but hardly someone who knows the ins and outs of the industry. For that you need someone who has had a multitude of jobs at various different types of organizations.

Re: To my students

#138

Post by 2ndorderthought »

nikcub wrote: post #131
tptacek wrote: post #11

"I do not and will not use LLMs, in any form, for any purpose. Although LLMs are fascinating from a purely technical perspective, I refuse to participate in or contribute to such systems that are built on massive exploitation of human labor and make profligate use of scarce resources. I also don't think they are actually very good for a lot of the applications people seem excited about. Even in cases where LLMs are t…

* real programmers write assembly, not FORTRAN * real programmers manage memory, it's a craft * real programmers don't drag and drop * real programmers don't use intellisense * real programmers don't need stack overflow * real programmers don't tab-complete * real programmers don't need copilot * real programmers don't use llms <- you are here

That's also not what he is saying. I don't see how that is what everyone is taking from this.

Re: To my students

#139

Post by kube-system »

jszymborski wrote: post #83
cdfalcon wrote: post #19

There's something so off-putting about academics giving industry advice when they haven't spent a day working as an engineer at a company. > Care deeply about your craft. Refactor code until it is clear and elegant. Write good documentation for other humans to read. Have the courage to go slowly, especially when everyone else is telling you that you need to go fast and cut corners. Outside of the bit on avoiding cutt…

Why do you think this is industry advice? I can't find anything here that indicates that it's the case? Maybe they just feel this is the right thing to do.

The stated audience is his students who are "imminently going out into the world (e.g. "The software industry" he is referring to) or continuing your studies."

Re: To my students

#140

Post by ryandrake »

sosodev wrote: post #57
cdfalcon wrote: post #19

There's something so off-putting about academics giving industry advice when they haven't spent a day working as an engineer at a company. > Care deeply about your craft. Refactor code until it is clear and elegant. Write good documentation for other humans to read. Have the courage to go slowly, especially when everyone else is telling you that you need to go fast and cut corners. Outside of the bit on avoiding cutt…

I sense that the frustration you feel is that professors are able to make choices based on their values, but the average person is not. That is broadly speaking, of course. I think it is a great shame that we live in a modern world where we do we must to survive regardless of how it makes us feel. I suspect it is the root of much suffering.

Seriously. This thread is so depressing. It's like the entire software industry has given up and just accepted "increase speed forever at any cost" as some kind of iron law of software employment. Is nobody even pushing back anymore? Even offering token resistance? The 'bros have truly won. Our only imperative now is "Can we crush it in the market?"
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