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EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

juraj.bednar.io

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Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#131

Post by subscribed »

coppsilgold wrote: post #14

It seems unlikely that a true Zero Knowledge Proof system for things like age verification would ever be allowed. Also, remote attestation doesn't work that way and for good reason. Under a true ZKP system, a single defector (extracted/leaked/etc key) would be able to generate an infinite number of false attestations without detection.

In that case Google play integrity cannot be used.

It certifies devices running on Oreo (because vendor didn't provide updates),meaning there are almost infinite vulnerabilities that will allow to leak the keys.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#132

Post by petre »

silversmith wrote: post #108
jdrek1 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is what follows. They will make it mandatory to use the electronic ID to do anything, resulting in total surveillance. And if you happen to land on their "bad" list (which eventually everyone will), you're locked out of life completely. No banking, no traveling, no communication with anyone, no buying food, nothing.

In Latvia we've had digital id for close to 20 years. Banks mostly use their own auth, some rely on digital id. No travel service has ever wanted me to use digital id, let alone any other kind of shopping. What we use it for is access to government resources, and signing digital documents. I trust this system WAY more than whatever some company comes up with.

> No travel service has ever wanted me to use digital id, let alone any other kind of shopping

Yup, until they are regulated to do so in case you buy booze, porn, metal detectors, crossbows or who knows what else. And until silversmith tries to dodge the draft but he accidentaly bought some booze woth his gov eID to party with friends.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#133

Post by pmlnr »

dwedge wrote: post #104
jeroenhd wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they? The only reasons to show ID I can think of is when watching porn or maybe when buying alcohol online, though I doubt stores will want to risk driving customers away with that.

Or using social media, signing up for any account where you can post content, and soon creating an account on your own device. As for why would they, the same reason there are hundreds of tracking cookies on every site.

The same social media that stores everything down to your keystrokes? Sure, the problem is needing a gov ID, sure.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#134

Post by pezezin »

wongarsu wrote: post #74
graemep wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just as we should disallow removing citizenship. However lots of countries do allow removing citizenship In the UK it is a political decision too. Lots of countries allow locking people out of other things (e.g. freezing bank accounts). I therefore doubt we an effectively prevent this. I do not see the problem with physical tokens. They are simple, do not create a single point of failure (if I lose my phone I still…

The drawback of physical tokens is that you can't use them online. I don't want to spend an hour waiting in queue at the city hall for something I can do online in 10 minutes. The ideal state is having both physical and digital ID. But that will lead to a slow erosion of the willingness to carry physical ID, even if it stays available (which I believe it will for many decades. Even if national ID cards and drivers li…

But you CAN use them online. Smart card readers are nothing new, and quite cheap.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#135

Post by petre »

kivle wrote: post #33
mayama wrote: post #10

With the way elections changed after social media became big. Govts want to have control back, like they did before. And are increasingly curbing open internet with boogeyman CP or terrorists, new fear of mass AI CP. Ultimately we'll get 2nd hand version of great firewall and social credit system. Some "liberal democracies" already have root of such systems implemented.

I think it has more to do with digital verification for social media in a hope of killing bot accounts that are interfering in the public debate. Some of the biggest social media influencer accounts turns out to be Chinese/Russian bots trying to fuel hate/division our democracies, and with LLMs it is only getting worse. Some form of digital ID to verify social media account identities is probably the only hope left o…

That's actually great for social media companies to create a profile on you and feed you ads. They don't care about the bots or denocracy. The only hope for a real public debate is to show up in person at the debate.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#136

Post by [deleted] »

subscribed wrote: post #127
esperent wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true, it seems to be just this specific German one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47644406

I'm afraid you're wrong. Whitelabel/demo implementation specifically pushes FOR Google Play Integrity after being explained why that's a bad idea: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technic... Via: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24452-eu-might-enforce-goog... which specifically quotes the law that should forbid such approach (Article 6(4) DMA) - so EU initiative and engineers consciously and inten…

[deleted]

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#137

Post by petre »

subscribed wrote: post #124
mayama wrote: post #10

With the way elections changed after social media became big. Govts want to have control back, like they did before. And are increasingly curbing open internet with boogeyman CP or terrorists, new fear of mass AI CP. Ultimately we'll get 2nd hand version of great firewall and social credit system. Some "liberal democracies" already have root of such systems implemented.

The governments don't mind AI CP even made with real children as long as you're a billionaire openly selling access to the generator. That kind of serves as a proof to your opinion it's a boogeyman.

They possibly do, which is why France invited Musk to attend a hearing.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/musk-summoned-by-fr...

But they would gladly use that for more control.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#138

Post by vladvasiliu »

pzo wrote: post #83
jeroenhd wrote: post #59

It's not a trojan horse, it's spelled out in the decision, debates, and legal texts to be the explicit goal. The age verification requirement was picked both as a means to prove the technology is sound and as a simple starting point for a full digital ID solution. The EU already has some form of digital ID in fact, every government provides some kind of OIDC-like service tied to either smart cards or accounts that au…

The difference you barely have to show you physical ID - mostly only when interacting with bank, signing document, government. I never got asked when buying alcohol and if asked at least I would only let to have a look instead of snapping a picture. Imagine if suddenly every grocery, pharmacy, petrol station, parking place, restaurant, bar etc. now would ask you for your ID AND would snap a picture and store in their…

It's pretty common to have to show some form of state-issued ID when entering bars and the like in France if the bouncer thinks you're underage. Ditto for buying alcohol. Hell, in the US I've had to go back to the hotel to grab my passport to enter a bar. My French driver's license and balding head weren't enough.

But you do have a point about "storing the picture". I think that's why it's very important for whatever solution is chosen to be something that proves you're old enough without saying who you are.

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#139

Post by gspr »

bootsmann wrote: post #69

> Real cryptographic unlinkability schemes like BBS+ or CL signatures would produce uncorrelated proofs even on reuse. This is not that. This discussion was already led ad nauseam with the Swiss eID proposal (which is supposed to be EUID compatible) and the reason why the system relies on rotating signatures instead of ZKPs is that the cryptography hardware modules in most phones don't support algorithms such as BBS+…

I'd very much like to read up on the various proposed ID systems, pros and cons and experience. Do you have a good starting point to recommend beyond "(insert country) eID" on Wikipedia?

Re: EU Age Control: The trojan horse for digital IDs

#140

Post by aquariusDue »

petre wrote: post #130
jeroenhd wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to some of them, across the Atlantic the Americans are implementing similar laws in absolutely ridiculous ways. Many Americans don't even have ID (and plenty of those are reluctant to the general concept of any kind of government ID), let alone any kind of digital ID. However, their governments are pushing frankly weird and absurd ID verification laws to businesses online. Meta seems to be bankrolling lobb…

Relax, it would probably buit by Palantir and operated by Meta /s.

I thought that's what the blue checkmark on X was for already /s
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