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I have officially retired from Emacs

nullprogram.com

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Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#131
post #70

My usage of emacs is so vim-like that I’ve tried switching a few times. Vim is definitely faster, and overlays and cursor placement is much simpler and more intuitive. But there were still feature gaps and configuration issues that prevented full adoption.

can you elaborate? Heavy vim user here, have considered using emacs in vim mode to quell a decades long nagging curiosity. Just need a compelling nudge.

I don't know how much this applies to everyone else, but the ability to display images inline is really nice for notetaking. I cannot write properly, so org-mode (a notetaking tool that can export to a variety of formats) with embedded rendered latex equations makes it really easy to take notes and write things up in a plaintext format without needing to export every 30 seconds to view equations. The ability to embed code that can actually run is also very nice.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nice built-in tutorial for actually editing text with it. Press control-h then t to launch it. But that's just for using the editor. For actually configuring it, I've found that Opus 4.6 (inside Droid) is exceptionally good at tweaking my init.el. Yesterday I typed "Set the default YAML indentation to 2 spaces." It came up with (use-package yaml-mode :defer t :config (setq yaml-indent-offset 2)) (add-hook '…

> I've found that Opus 4.6 (inside Droid) What does (inside Droid) mean ? Do you use any package to integrate to claude code in emacs?

Droid is my employer's alternative to Claude Code, which I personally prefer. But the general point is that LLMs are really good at Emacs Lisp these days.

I've started using Droid inside Emacs via the agent-shell package I learned about here a few days ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45561672). It handles quite a few other agents, too.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#133
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs have inspired a similar change in me FWIW, the age of LLMs made me build a deeper, more intimate relationship with Emacs, because it's a Lisp REPL loop with a built-in editor, not the other way around. When you give an LLM a closed loop system where it can evaluate code in a live REPL and observe the results, it stops guessing and starts reasoning empirically. LLM that I run inside Emacs can fully control the…

Asolutely. It doesn't have to be an either-or. I use gptel and org mode when I was to be really hands on driving the development. It's a very different mode of interacting with models, and the way newer models are trained to play nice with harnesses makes them very obedient. https://poyo.co/note/20260202T150723/

Interesting. Tnx.

In case anyone else wondered about using gptel to edit thinking (eg vis Qwen3.6's `preserve thinking`), [1] explains:

> In a multi-turn request, from the time you run `gptel-send`, everything the LLM sends is passed back to it [...during tool calls...] includes multiple reasoning blocks. [...But...] subsequent gptel-send calls read their input from the buffer contents (or active region, etc), so the reasoning blocks in the buffer will not [] be sent as "reasoning_content".

But in org mode, those are apparently `#+being_reasoning` blocks (`gptel-include-reasoning`?), so editable thought might be an easy addition?

A caution, fwiw, that any llms which respond with interleaved content and reasoning blocks, currently only work when not streaming, and fixing that is non-trivial.[also 1]

[1] https://github.com/karthink/gptel/issues/1282

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs has full system access with arbitrary execution so full emacs access -> full system access.

So? My terminal has the same full system access. If I didn't use Emacs, I'd be using Claude code in it. It's contained locally on my computer, I don't see any problem here. I use Emacs like my OS-layer. Why would I complain that my OS has access to something? It would be weird and annoying if it's the opposite.

Ah come on, guys, let's talk pragmatically. "Malleable editor as an OS layer" has benefits beyond subjective reasoning. Emacs has had M-x shell-command and arbitrary elisp eval forever. A metacircular MCP isn't some new capability class. Even if I didn't use Emacs - my shell, my editor, my browser extensions, my npm install, my VSCode plugins, my curl | bash from yesterday - they all have the same access. Singling out the LLM in this context is like selection bias.

Of course, reasonable mitigations are a must - just like for any other tool. Narrowing MCP scope - tool routing rules, read-only git defaults, etc. "Docker or nothing" is a lazy answer - Docker-for-everything has real costs: friction, broken integrations, worse ergonomics.

Practical security is all about staying in the goldilocks zone. You shouldn't get relaxed about the basics - sandboxing, 2FA, password managers - they are worth doing, and you can get so paranoid about so many things, and yet against a targeted, well-resourced attacker, your sandboxing posture is mostly irrelevant. The interesting attacks bypass the threat model entirely. Read about Ben Nassi's team research¹ - pretty cool example. There are multitudes of other ways and your Docker container won't stop them. Defend against the boring 99%, and accept that the 1% is someone else's problem (or a much bigger problem than your dev environment)

¹ https://www.nassiben.com/video-based-crypta

TLDR LLM Summary: Researchers showed that a device's power LED subtly flickers in brightness and color while the CPU performs cryptographic work, and these flickers leak information about the secret key. By pointing an ordinary video camera (an iPhone or an internet-connected security camera) at the LED and exploiting the camera's rolling shutter, they boosted the effective sampling rate from 60 to 60,000 measurements per second, enough to do cryptanalysis. Using only this video footage, they recovered full ECDSA and SIKE keys from a smartcard reader and a Samsung Galaxy S8, with no malware on the target devices.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#135
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tons of companies are still fixing the losses from vibe coding. Well, you have to separate "future of" from "ensuing damage". This is similar to the fishing industry. Fishermen in the past used spears, rods, small nets, nowadays annual national catch statistics are reported in kilotonnes. They are destroying the ocean floor, causing massive extinction of species, causing irreversible damage. Yet, you can't argue lo…

No, this is like fishing with dynamite.

Hmm... it's hard to imagine that fishing with dynamite ever caused species extinction; trawling industry definitely did. I don't think it's a fitting analogy, but I get what you're trying to say. I'm not arguing about the damage. The damage this human invention will cause is guaranteed. Just like plastics have. The answer to that is not "ban plastics completely" - kinda late for that, innit? The answer is "put resources into plastic research, make safe plastic possible". Maybe if we make safe, better AI, it will help with the plastic? If there's anything I've learned about humans - first, we probably cause a lot of damage.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#136
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs have inspired a similar change in me FWIW, the age of LLMs made me build a deeper, more intimate relationship with Emacs, because it's a Lisp REPL loop with a built-in editor, not the other way around. When you give an LLM a closed loop system where it can evaluate code in a live REPL and observe the results, it stops guessing and starts reasoning empirically. LLM that I run inside Emacs can fully control the…

So much this. Lisp can do things other languages have a hard time with. I think a resurgence is in order.

Can't agree more. Lisp was discovered/invented for the purpose of AI research. Of course, modern neural nets and transformers is a big departure from McCarthy's vision of AI - logical, interpretable, symbolic. However, if the current wave of AI hits a wall - and many serious researchers think it will, or already has at the margins - there's growing interest in neurosymbolic approaches that combine neural nets with symbolic reasoning. That's closer to McCarthy's original vision, and Lisps are genuinely well-suited for it.

Let's be honest: Lisp probably won't ever get bigger than Python, unless Python for whatever reason starts dying on its own. But if AI ever gets serious about interpretability, formal reasoning, program synthesis - all the stuff Lisp was built for - it just might quietly become relevant again in research contexts, without ever reclaiming mainstream status.

Scicloj has been building out a serious ML stack in Clojure - noj, metamorph.ml, scicloj.ml.tribuo, libpython-clj for Python interop. Beside that, people been proving that 'code is data' is exactly what makes it a better target for LLMs. Clojure is most token efficient PL - it's been proven. There are some recent interesting clj projects in relevance:

https://github.com/realgenekim/clj-surgeon

https://clojure.getpando.ai

https://github.com/yogthos/chiasmus

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#137
The previous post alludes to Evil being the long term plan. That seems sensible: it ought to be easier to use an implementation of Vim in Emacs rather than port much of Emacs to independent applications.

Yet the author ended up doing the latter and it's not really made clear why. Why?

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? My terminal has the same full system access. If I didn't use Emacs, I'd be using Claude code in it. It's contained locally on my computer, I don't see any problem here. I use Emacs like my OS-layer. Why would I complain that my OS has access to something? It would be weird and annoying if it's the opposite.

Ah come on, guys, let's talk pragmatically. "Malleable editor as an OS layer" has benefits beyond subjective reasoning. Emacs has had M-x shell-command and arbitrary elisp eval forever. A metacircular MCP isn't some new capability class. Even if I didn't use Emacs - my shell, my editor, my browser extensions, my npm install, my VSCode plugins, my curl | bash from yesterday - they all have the same access. Singling ou…

It's your computer and you can do whatever yolo nonsense you want, my dude, but put those goalposts back where they were.

"Don't run that shit on a credentialed box with data you care about" is addressing real threats, not some goofy nation state thing or abstract security research.

If you let the footgun machine constantly generate new code and run it on your computer, you're just asking for data loss and bad shit to happen.

Docker isn't a great solution but it at least doesn't let yolo code delete files or access env vars or read the contents of .ssh/

> my browser extensions, my npm install, my VSCode plugins, my curl | bash

Yeah, and you shouldn't yolo those, either lol. If they didn't come from a trusted source, you need to read through them. If you don't want to, don't use them. That's not paranoia, that's, like, normal.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what friction/maintenance he found with Tridactyl For me the friction always comes when I try to use the internet without it

We're talking about https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tridactyl-vim... ? One example: it disables the default Ctrl-F search function but its own search function is subpar (no match counts/hlsearch, e.g.) and often clashes with website's built-in search (on Github, e.g.). It doesn't work on the default newtab either, and changing the default newtab somehow makes opening a new tab slower (that's FF's fault…

You can type /phrase and then press ctrl-F for the full search bar. A more annoying problem is that some websites capture / presses, making it harder to initiate a page search. Then you have to shift-esc ctrl-f to search.

Re: I have officially retired from Emacs

#140
post #68

I used emacs full-time for many many years. Then I switched to Vim or other editors with Vim modes, also for many years. I have to be honest, I don’t see a particularly clear winner between them. Model editing is a bit unusual in many ways. There are some things that it certainly makes easier, but I personally found that the overall process of editing and writing code in real time for me was more efficient in a singl…

> I don’t see a particularly clear winner between them Because deep down they are incomparable categorically. Separate the tools from the foundational ideas and you see the very different value. Vim-model of text navigation is fantastic, practical, brilliant idea. Once you grok it - you can take it anywhere. You can use it in your editor, browser, terminal, WM. Emacs is rooted in another, even more brilliant idea of…

Why not both? Evil is a reimplementation of Vim in Emacs and it is great.
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