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A Eulogy for Vim

drewdevault.com

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Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#131

Post by cldellow »

tovej wrote: post #122
cldellow wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buried (IMO) in the post is: > sadly even Vim now comes under scrutiny in that effort as both Vim and NeoVim are relying on LLMs to develop the software. ...where he links to a comment in a closed issue where someone accuses a contributor of using an LLM to generate patches: https://github.com/vim/vim/issues/18800#issuecomment-3568099... The tl;dr: Drew thinks Vim development has been tainted by LLM contributions, an…

I think it's more fair to say that someone shows that a contributor has started to commit much more frequently and constantly breaking things, and that this corresponds to when they have started (self-reportedly) using LLM's for development.

Fair enough - my initial comment talked about quality, but I realized that was my own take on the situation.

I had revised the comment because I think I now understand Drew's chief complaint to be about the moral side of LLM usage, not the practical quality side of LLM usage.

He does use the word "slop" which implicates quality, but that's a single word in his essay, versus whole paragraphs about the moral questions of LLM usage and his stated reason that the fork was "to keep my conscience clear".

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#132

Post by JuniperMesos »

taviso wrote: post #61

I'm experiencing something similar with another piece of software. ledger-cli is a boring, dependable accounting application. The next release will be the first where the majority of commits will be made by AI, and it has definitely not gone smoothly. After a dozen or so bug reports, it's mostly in a working state, but I worry the output is no longer reliable in subtle ways.

What specifically has gone poorly? Is a dozen bug reports high or low compared to previous versions of the software where humans are writing the code?

I don't use ledger-cli myself but I do use the similar software hledger. I don't pay very close attention to hledger's development process, but I haven't noticed any bugs that affect me in years of using it.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#133

Post by margalabargala »

elif wrote: post #121
elif wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. Through personal conversations in recent years, I’ve learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per1 psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. Children: Humans up t…

or am i "not understanding his meaning" here somehow again?

Look, we know you think you understand what you think you read.

It's just that you don't seem to realize that what you perennially appear to have understood, is not what anyone wrote.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#134

Post by phyzome »

AlexandrB wrote: post #97
phyzome wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cobalt thing is apparently misinformation. You've been misled. Technology Connections did a great video that goes into this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM

Sorry, I did a quick google search which seemed to indicate that cobalt is present in solar panels and batteries and not a deep dive. The broader point, that whether mining X mineral for Y purpose is bad depends entirely on what you already think of Y, remains.

I don't think it depends.

Mining practices can be bad even if the minerals are used for a purpose that we judge as good. Those can coexist (in tension, which is where we end up thinking about tradeoffs).

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#135

Post by taviso »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #132
taviso wrote: post #61

I'm experiencing something similar with another piece of software. ledger-cli is a boring, dependable accounting application. The next release will be the first where the majority of commits will be made by AI, and it has definitely not gone smoothly. After a dozen or so bug reports, it's mostly in a working state, but I worry the output is no longer reliable in subtle ways.

What specifically has gone poorly? Is a dozen bug reports high or low compared to previous versions of the software where humans are writing the code? I don't use ledger-cli myself but I do use the similar software hledger. I don't pay very close attention to hledger's development process, but I haven't noticed any bugs that affect me in years of using it.

Major breaking bugs.

A regression here and there would be normal before, major features breaking in this stable 25 year old software is simply unheard of.

This is not exciting cutting-edge software, it's a boring financial app. My instinct is people want stability and confidence that the output won't change and that their records will still parse.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#136

Post by snackerblues »

Legend2440 wrote: post #57
herodoturtle wrote: post #15

> And at a moment when the climate demands immediate action to reduce our footprint on this planet, the AI boom is driving data centers to consume a full 1.5% of the world’s total energy production in order to eliminate the jobs of the poor and replace them with a robot that lies. That sentence jumped out at me.

This is backwards. If it weren't for 'eliminating jobs' we'd both be peasant farmers right now. Automation has improved the standard of living and raised wages for everyone, rich and poor alike.

Ok, Claude.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#137

Post by tovej »

soraminazuki wrote: post #127
tovej wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not plugins: https://github.com/vim/vim/issues/18800#issuecomment-3568099...

That's an unfounded accusation being presented as proof.

unfounded? They suddenly started using LLMs, their activity shot up, and the number of breaking changes did as well.

That's pretty obvious to me. We're not in a court of law, the standard isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#138

Post by balgg »

mikkupikku wrote: post #2

I've long had great respect for Drew, way since way back when he was sircmpwn writing cool calculator software. Great programmer, and an incredibly based individual. Stays true to himself even in the face of overwhelming pressure. I completely disagree with his take on this; battleship vibecoder in vimscript is awesome and important, socially, because vibe coding makes computer programming accessible to the masses. I…

> because vibe coding makes computer programming accessible to the masses

To those who can afford the subscriptions, sure.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#139

Post by blastonico »

gaws wrote: post #90
blastonico wrote: post #52

I prefer VS Code with Claude Opus 4.6, it makes me more productive during my working hours so I can take more quality time with my family. I know that my point of view is considered .+(cist|phobic) (based on the post). I'm sorry for that.

> I prefer VS Code with Claude Opus 4.6, it makes me more productive during my working hours so I can take more quality time with my family. That's great you can spend more time with your family, but the code you're writing this way is, by and large, probably crap.

Garbage in, garbage out. Most of the code out there is already crap, I'm just embracing it.

Re: A Eulogy for Vim

#140

Post by ratrace »

mikkupikku wrote: post #62
odst wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument that "vibe coding makes computer programming accessible to the masses" is something I don't understand. With all the free content on the internet, was it not accessible before?

It takes most people years of burying their heads in a computer to become effective programmers of anything more than trivial software. This is rapidly changing.

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