Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists • Hacker News Board

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#131

Post by jlgreco » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 4:45 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #126

jlgreco wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly a potential example from the past could perhaps be found in the social relations humans had with our close relatives. The relationships between Neanderthal and Cro-Magon is contested and ultimately largely unknown, however it seems likely there was some recognition of each other involved as something other than mere beasts.

Certainly a potential example from the past Sorry, my question was rhetorical in reference to existing species, not a search for prior art. If Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon did recognize each other with special status, that would be more of an example of the level of equality that would need to functionally exist between two species in order for there to be a real "understanding". That level of relative equality in no w…

I think a relationship between humans and Neanderthal would demonstrate that relationships can be established with at least that level of dis-simularity. It would not necessarily be the lowest bound.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#132

Post by natex » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 4:48 PM UTC

EvaPeron wrote: post #67

We need to be very careful here. There are those (not myself) who would contend that a fetus is a "person", thereby implying that abortion is "murder". I disagree with that, but if we say cetaceans are "persons" than is whaling then "murder"? Are we calling the Eskimo tribes who to this day hunt whales as part of their cultural tradition "murderers"? I am all for conservation, don't get me wrong, but willy-nilly thro…

Be careful with this comparison. The issue with abortion as murder is "when" a fetus becomes a person, not "if."

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#133

Post by shawnc » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #117

belorn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a implied statement that cetaceans would somehow need to learn English to receive similar protections as people. This is of course a really bad requirement. A lot of people in the world do not know English, and would thus be unable to let anyone know that they will mutually honor some sort of Interspecies Protective Treaty. Mostly, they would be unable to read any such treaty, or reply with the word "yes". F…

There is a implied statement that cetaceans would somehow need to learn English to receive similar protections as people. English? Where did I say that? However, communication verbal or nonverbal that conveys agreement to participate in a society is a requirement. This kind of communication would need to happen either individually or representatives cetaceans would need to come forward who could vouch for others of t…

This too will sound silly, but we don't even know if that would happen or could happen with Dolphins and Whales, because they've really just never been given the chance. It'd be like someone invading a new land they discovered, and just killing anyone in their way, without waiting to see if these people would indeed like to participate in their 'society'. But actually, on top of that, even if the dolphins could say they'd participate in this required society - why would it be deemed appropriate for the humans to make the rules here?

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#134

Post by kbutler » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

monsterix wrote: post #57

sethbannon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 10 month old has no responsibilities. Certainly, though, she has rights.

While theorizing tests of animal psyche and self-awareness might be helpful to the purpose, but what we humans forget is the preciseness of agent Smith's evaluation of us: "I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with th…

> There is no chance any animal/fish is going to survive the brunt of us 9 billion in next fifty years

I'll take that bet.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#135

Post by thenduks » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:03 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #117

belorn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a implied statement that cetaceans would somehow need to learn English to receive similar protections as people. This is of course a really bad requirement. A lot of people in the world do not know English, and would thus be unable to let anyone know that they will mutually honor some sort of Interspecies Protective Treaty. Mostly, they would be unable to read any such treaty, or reply with the word "yes". F…

There is a implied statement that cetaceans would somehow need to learn English to receive similar protections as people. English? Where did I say that? However, communication verbal or nonverbal that conveys agreement to participate in a society is a requirement. This kind of communication would need to happen either individually or representatives cetaceans would need to come forward who could vouch for others of t…

Why do they have to participate in our society in order to be protected from torture/murder/slavery/etc? The point of this article is that they have their own society and should not be made our playthings.

I'm also not sure why they would need to agree to some kind of treaty with humans just to be spared our cruelty. There's no evidence they mean us harm, we have the ability to protect ourselves if they did, let's just leave them alone.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#136

Post by pfortuny » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:06 PM UTC

hannes2000 wrote: post #124

"When you place dolphins in a situation like that they respond in exactly the same way humans do" – I doubt any human would just play along with this boring game.

Sociologists DO get boring when designing experiments, don't they?

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#137

Post by astrodust » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:07 PM UTC

nandemo wrote: post #104

jawns wrote: post #15

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the cause of treating dolphins as if they had human rights if we first agreed to treat all humans as if they had human rights.

Indeed. These are some other headlines on the BBC sidebar at the moment: Deadly car bombings rock Syria S Korea shuts nuclear reactors Two killed in Bahrain explosions

Note that none of those involved dolphins.

Maybe they're more civilized than we are.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#138

Post by guard-of-terra » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:09 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #113

nathan_long wrote: post #6

>> They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans. I don't have a problem with extending legal protection to dolphins, but I do think that "intelligence" as the criteria is morally problematic, at least if it's the sole criteria. For instance, could a person with Down's Syndrome be denied protection from murder? The Christian worldview holds that hum…

I always saw this question as one of sentience, not intelligence. Certainly there are computers that exceed human levels of intelligence at certain tasks today, but none are sentient. The things that I have been thinking a lot about lately are -- What happens when natural death is reduced by 99% and human levels of intelligence are extended to countless genetically customized biological lifeforms? Do sentient compute…

"Children can no longer look to their parents for patterns on how to live their lives"

This stands for at least a century when the big shift from the village to the city occured. I'd say it wasn't any less radical than the shifts ahead us. Maybe a bit more radical even.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#139

Post by takluyver » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

mistercow wrote: post #81

jawns wrote: post #15

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the cause of treating dolphins as if they had human rights if we first agreed to treat all humans as if they had human rights.

I find this line of thought extremely tedious. We have never improved as a society by lining up all of our concerns in a nicely organized list by priority, and then tackling everything on the agenda sequentially. I am reminded of people who scoff at giving money to bums on the grounds that it is an inefficient form of charity. In most cases, here is what happens: 1. Bum asks X for spare change. 2. X thinks "That's no…

I agree with the point you're making - we can address more than one problem at once - but I'm not sure the charity example is the best one.

People have a kind of mental 'karma quota', where once they've done so much good deeds, they don't feel a need to do more. It's a problem for environmental awareness, because people get daft advice like 'unplug your phone charger' (which achieves almost nothing), and then feel they've done their bit.

So the person walking past a homeless man probably won't go and give the same money to charity (hands up, I've done that). But the accumulated guilt might eventually make them go and donate money to something.

Re: Dolphins deserve same rights as humans, say scientists

#140

Post by akiselev » Mon, Nov 05, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #91

dharmach wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion is correct but don't drag Christianity here. Christianity did enough violence on the name of non-violent Jesus. Better you talk of universal human values.

>> Your opinion is correct but don't drag Christianity here. Christianity did enough violence on the name of non-violent Jesus. Better you talk of universal human values. I understand your sentiment, but 1) you're making an "ad hominem" against Christianity, which I could argue is not justified but in any case is not pertinent, and 2) what you're asking ultimately doesn't make sense. We're having a discussion about w…

Morality is only inherently religious if your diety is human society. Otherwise religion only impacts morality in the way that its doctrines are passed on by that society.

Person B is not fundamentally immoral, only by the standards of a society and if his moral framework is incompatible with his society then they will leave or be terminated.