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Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

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Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#131

Post by bovermyer »

jeffbee wrote: post #100
fasterik wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a completely nostalgic, one-sided view of the urban vs. rural divide. It's also ignorant of the data on the impact of cities on nature. Cities have a lower carbon footprint per capita, lower land use per capita, people own fewer cars, use public transportation more often. If everyone lived in a city, nature would be better off. People live in cities because they are vibrant, they have culture, the arts, intel…

Yeah, but unfortunately false nostalgia for subsistence farming is widespread and has traction in the discourse. I guess it's probably because every American who ever suffered from that lifestyle is dead, in other words the same reason that it is now increasingly popular to die from measles. In reality, the laser-leveled, fully-automated, county-scale factory farm is the only reason anyone on this forum has ever expe…

Farming is harder than people who haven't done it think, and surviving on the production of only your family's property is really, really hard. Source: I grew up in very rural areas, and I've seen what it entails. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression in a farming community on a homestead.

However, I don't think that's the ask, here. You don't have to choose MEGASUPERTROPOLIS or remote solo farm. There's a huge gradient between the two.

It's possible to put a little effort into gardening, share with your community, and massively reduce the overall cost of food while still having free time.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#132

Post by jstanley »

ericmcer wrote: post #128

What are we trying to achieve as a species? If we can't answer that question then we can't really judge our actions effectively. If we view humanity as the most intelligent life form not just on the planet, but in the entire universe, then we are the only source of order in an infinite chaos. All of reality is just entropy and mindless cruelty except for humanity. Viewed in that lens we almost have a duty to expand b…

> What are we trying to achieve as a species?

How often can a group of even 3 people come up with one thing that they're trying to achieve? You're not going to get consensus on what the goal is for humanity.

> If we view humanity as the most intelligent life form not just on the planet, but in the entire universe, then we are the only source of order in an infinite chaos.

That doesn't follow at all!

And even if it did, why stop at the species level? If humanity being the most intelligent species makes humanity the only source of order, does Terence Tao being the most intelligent human make Terence Tao the only source of order?

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#133

Post by layer8 »

projektfu wrote: post #73
pfdietz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back when LtG came out, there was a study of the limits imposed by resource availability. The conclusion was that, to first approximation, the only resource that we had to worry about was energy. Fossil fuels would have to go, but everything else was either available in effectively unlimited amounts or could be substituted with things that were. An example of the latter was mercury -- effectively all previous uses ha…

When is the world population expected to decline? Or are you talking about a specific country?

Before the end of the century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population_projections

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#134

Post by Geee »

keybored wrote: post #94
Geee wrote: post #70

Is this a joke? Growth is caused by consumer demand, and answering to it in the best way possible. It's not an 'obsession' of the capitalist businesses or countries. Capitalism is simply an algorithm which tries to allocate resources such that a growing demand can be answered, and that everyone has their needs satisfied. There are plenty of people who don't have enough food, enough housing, or other basic needs. The…

Businesses need, or at the very least strongly want, to increase profits. There’s not like there’s any end to that supposed algorithm. And it gets harder and harder as time goes on. And as usual the cart is put before the horse. Businesses just don’t answer to consumer demand. They very strongly set the terms for it. And if consumer demands go down? That’s what the marketing industry is for. To create new demands. So…

A lot of growth activity in businesses is zero sum, if it isn't increasing the efficiency of production. Businesses can't create demand from thin air with marketing.

Total productivity of the world is number_of_people * productivity_of_human. There's growth whenever these terms grow. People want to produce at least as much as they want to consume. So, growth is caused by more people being born, or people adopting more efficient methods of production, up to a limit where their all needs are met.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#135

Post by Geee »

gnarlouse wrote: post #74
Geee wrote: post #70

Is this a joke? Growth is caused by consumer demand, and answering to it in the best way possible. It's not an 'obsession' of the capitalist businesses or countries. Capitalism is simply an algorithm which tries to allocate resources such that a growing demand can be answered, and that everyone has their needs satisfied. There are plenty of people who don't have enough food, enough housing, or other basic needs. The…

I think the intention here is to capture and spend more time respecting the negative externalities that are associated with growth.

Sure, externalities should be priced somehow, and this is the core problem, but demanding or forcing people to limit consumption is wrong.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#136

Post by lucianbr »

delegate wrote: post #108
modeless wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lifestyle you describe is very cheap and you can certainly afford it, if you wanted. There are plenty of rural small towns you could choose from. Why not do it if it's what you think you want?

You can't escape the rat race even if you hide in a cave these days. Life like that is no longer possible, at least not in Europe. I didn't write that to shame anyone. I happen to like my life in the city with all the negatives. But sometimes I think about this - is all this 'comfort' worth the destruction of nature ?

> I'm really struggling to understand what we've grown into and why this rat race is considered 'better'

> I happen to like my life in the city

Ahh... you struggle to understand why a life you like is considered better than a life you like less, or dislike?

People probably consider it better for the same reasons you like it. It should be obvious.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#137

Post by trgn »

emchammer wrote: post #114
trgn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

boomers didnt want to let go of the welfare state their parents and grandparents had introduced, at the same time they live longer, work less, not nearly had as many kids, and did not effectuate the required productivity growth to offset that. they will go down in history as the worst generation in modern history, 100% certain of that.

What welfare state? Do you mean the universal healthcare that they claw away at any cost, like Mitch McConnell onto the podium?

social security, medicare

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#138

Post by antisthenes »

greygoo222 wrote: post #109
delegate wrote: post #84

When I was a child, I was spending my summers at my grandparents. They had a cozy house in the village. They worked the land, they had a few animals. They grew their food. They sold some wine and fruit at the market. They had a big house, land, clean air, clean water and they were healthy. They celebrated the holidays, had many friends, went to church, weddings, funerals, etc. Villagers always greeted them and stoppe…

Your problem is that you were happy as a child and unhappy as an adult. That's a personal problem, and has little to do with rural or urban living. As other commenters have pointed out, you can most likely afford to buy a farm if you really want that lifestyle. I suspect you don't, because it sucks major ass to have to do manual labor all day, to eat almost entirely the same things and see the same people for decades…

> it sucks major ass to have to do manual labor all day, to eat almost entirely the same things and see the same people for decades on end, and to choke off your access to most of the joy and beauty in the world.

2 of these aren't bad things.

1 is a complete non-sequitur

1 is a good recipe for staying active/healthy and non-obese if done in moderation. Farming equipment is an option - you don't have to till 2-3 acres just by hand.

The one thing you neglected to mention (that is a pretty important blocker) is that with farming/country-side living it's pretty hard to leave your kids a legacy outside of leaving them the farm itself, and locking them into the same lifestyle.

Also, hugely increased risks in the 21st century due to global warming.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#139

Post by Tade0 »

delegate wrote: post #84

When I was a child, I was spending my summers at my grandparents. They had a cozy house in the village. They worked the land, they had a few animals. They grew their food. They sold some wine and fruit at the market. They had a big house, land, clean air, clean water and they were healthy. They celebrated the holidays, had many friends, went to church, weddings, funerals, etc. Villagers always greeted them and stoppe…

> I'm really struggling to understand what we've grown into

A population of eight billion, at least three of which live in industrialized regions.

My currently 99yo grandpa was born when there were approximately two billion people. He spent a huge chunk of his childhood running around barefoot.

Whenever he talks about that time I can't help but think this world doesn't exist any more and hasn't for a long time now.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#140

Post by lich_king »

fasterik wrote: post #96
delegate wrote: post #84

When I was a child, I was spending my summers at my grandparents. They had a cozy house in the village. They worked the land, they had a few animals. They grew their food. They sold some wine and fruit at the market. They had a big house, land, clean air, clean water and they were healthy. They celebrated the holidays, had many friends, went to church, weddings, funerals, etc. Villagers always greeted them and stoppe…

This is a completely nostalgic, one-sided view of the urban vs. rural divide. It's also ignorant of the data on the impact of cities on nature. Cities have a lower carbon footprint per capita, lower land use per capita, people own fewer cars, use public transportation more often. If everyone lived in a city, nature would be better off. People live in cities because they are vibrant, they have culture, the arts, intel…

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