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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#131

Post by IncreasePosts »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #92
spankalee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is funny quote. Is the driver even disputing that they were the driver? They seem like they're just mad they got caught. Maybe they just stop running red lights?

If someone is using your car they cant legally give you a ticket. If the picture taken doesnt clearly show you theoretically it needs to be dropped but of course thats not how it works in reality

Seems silly. Just attach the ticket to the car itself and then the registered owner can handle obtaining payment from whoever was driving the car.

If the registered owner wants to claim that someone stole their car or was operating it without permission then there can be some very hefty punishment for making false statements if it can be proved that it was actually the owner in the car.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#132

Post by pclmulqdq »

cromka wrote: post #93
archontes wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, which is why that compulsion will be accompanied by immunity.

OK, but then you're testifying under oath and lying, because it was you who did it, after all?

If you have an immunity deal and are asked to testify about a crime you committed under it, you admit to doing it and they can't prosecute you.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#133

Post by kstrauser »

jotux wrote: post #78
spankalee wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is funny quote. Is the driver even disputing that they were the driver? They seem like they're just mad they got caught. Maybe they just stop running red lights?

I suspect this is some light with chronically-bad timing that gets run by tons of people every day. The camera is taking a photo with a bunch of vehicles in the frame and it's ticketing the one that had the license plate unobstructed, even if a few of the vehicles in the frame technically entered the intersection when the light was yellow. Sometimes lights are just so poorly implemented, and drivers pass through them…

My hometown got busted making yellow lights shorter than the legally required duration, then hitting drivers with tickets for running a red light they couldn't have safely and reasonably avoided.

There are standards for this kind of thing, like if a light is on a road with a speed limit of X, then a yellow light has to last Y seconds. Imagine a yellow light that lasted .5s: you'd have to stand on your brakes and risk causing a rear end collision from the car behind you to even have a chance of not getting fined. That's the opposite of safety. My place wasn't that bad, but a defendant successfully demonstrated that the yellow light he was tricked by was illegally short, and a judge basically threw out all the tickets from it and others.

I mention this as just one example of specific light setups that suck. I bet you're right, and this is just a money grab from the local gov't.

Read this if you want to be angry today: https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-sho...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#134

Post by arjie »

quickthrowman wrote: post #127
arjie wrote: post #124

One thing that seems reasonable is to have car points and driver points. In the event of violations, both the vehicle and the driver are assigned points depending on detection. Then after a certain number of points, the vehicle is impounded with the owner able to have it stored at an appropriately licensed facility of their choice that ensures that the vehicle cannot be driven on public roads. Reporting vehicle theft…

That seems extremely unreasonable, cops can prove who was driving at the time of the violation or they can not bring a case. If I lend my car to someone and they break the law, it’s not the car’s fault. I’m glad my state found these unconstitutional as well.

Well, objects used in the commission of a crime are frequently confiscated. That's not outrageous. If I lend someone my gun and they rob a bank, I will likely not get my gun back though "it's not the gun's fault". Automated machinery has the advantage that it is impartial and effective, and given that law enforcement costs a lot in these circumstances, and that chasing cars for small enforcement violations creates worse outcomes, it seems thoroughly reasonable to apply the crime to the detectable object.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#135

Post by mvdtnz »

embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

> seems like a no-brainer no one could disagree with.

I disagree completely. This is how speed and red light cameras operate in my country. If you weren't the one driving, it's straight forward to show that. The other party can admit to the offence or you can present evidence including the camera itself. The burden is low. Camera infractions do not carry license demerit points because of this ongerent uncertainty.

What's the alternative? Use even more valuable police resources to issue these tickets? Or just not penalize dangerous infractions?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#136

Post by hypeatei »

izacus wrote: post #114
hypeatei wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it wasn't you driving, you know who That's not necessarily true. What if it's a shared car in your family and you weren't home to see who took it? This comment is the tech equivalent to "falsehoods programmers believe about "... real life does not fit into such neat boxes.

Then you pay the ticket yourself or ask the family who did it so they can do it. This is normal across the world and really isn't a stretch to expect vehicle owners to figure out who's been driving dangerously with their car.

> This is normal across the world

I'm not arguing it isn't, but the thought exercise is: does it make sense for the government to take people's money if the accused can't prove it wasn't them driving the car based on a police accusation (also with the threat of jail time if you don't pay)?

I don't think that's "normal", personally.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#137

Post by MisterTea »

spankalee wrote: post #54
1shooner wrote: post #4

>"I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they it's just not fair," one driver said who didn't want to be identified. The person that does the determination when you ran the light, it's just a random. Whoever they want to pick, pick you to say, okay, you're gonna pay the ticket." This is the opposite of my understanding of red light cameras. I always considered the supposed impartial application of…

This is funny quote. Is the driver even disputing that they were the driver? They seem like they're just mad they got caught. Maybe they just stop running red lights?

> Maybe they just stop running red lights?

Some lights change timing depending on the time of day so e.g. rush hour might have different timing than midday or late night.

I also believe there are and likely still are cases of malicious short yellow lights at camera intersections to increase revenue.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#138

Post by morkalork »

kstrauser wrote: post #133
jotux wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect this is some light with chronically-bad timing that gets run by tons of people every day. The camera is taking a photo with a bunch of vehicles in the frame and it's ticketing the one that had the license plate unobstructed, even if a few of the vehicles in the frame technically entered the intersection when the light was yellow. Sometimes lights are just so poorly implemented, and drivers pass through them…

My hometown got busted making yellow lights shorter than the legally required duration, then hitting drivers with tickets for running a red light they couldn't have safely and reasonably avoided. There are standards for this kind of thing, like if a light is on a road with a speed limit of X, then a yellow light has to last Y seconds. Imagine a yellow light that lasted .5s: you'd have to stand on your brakes and risk…

Is this the case where instead of admitting to it, the municipality attempted to have the complainant prosecuted for practicing engineering without a licence?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#139

Post by idle_zealot »

lateforwork wrote: post #108
idle_zealot wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they don’t show leniency. If policing is done by robots, then humans are expected to be infallible. This is bad when applied to laws that were written with an exception of leniency and selectivity in enforcement, which is quite a lot of them. For running red lights though? I don't mind if the robots take you off the road automatically.

Running red lights? That's not all the cameras are used for. If are making a right turn on red and didn't come to a complete stop first you can get a ticket.

Okay? Rolling through a red light is dangerous whether you do it straight or to the right. Hell, the latter probably kills more pedestrians. I don't really mind holding drivers to high standards.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#140

Post by crote »

0x3f wrote: post #122
cromka wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't! It's 2 to 10 times more! But that's irrelevant; what we're talking about here is a hypothetical scenario where this gets challenged in Supreme Court and, as a result, police in US cannot assume fault in such cases.

> No, it doesn't! It's 2 to 10 times more! It's literally not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r... > Belgium 7.3 > Slovenia 7.0 > US 6.9 > France 5.8 Never mind all the other countries that do have presumption of guilt, which are also comparable in per-mile road deaths. And the ones with presumption but which _are_ 10x worse. Allowing the presumption is very clearly not well-correlated wit…

You are conveniently leaving out some European countries, such as Norway being at 3.0 per 1B km.

You are also conveniently leaving it the per-capita figures, with US being at 14.2 per 100k while countries like Norway, Sweden, and Finland being at 2.x, and Europe as a while being at 6.7.

So sure, "10x more" might be an exaggeration, but "2x more" is fairly accurate and even a claim of "7x more" is arguable.

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