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New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

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Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this sincerely, not as an insult: consider that the problem is with your mind or personal life, not with the world, and you should look for a way to address that if you haven't already.

Suggesting that the wholesale suffering wrought by humanity unto itself and all other life on this planet throughout its entire history is merely in my mind or a problem with my personal life is actually incredibly insulting on top of being willfully ignorant.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting your attitude towards it might be.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Biomes are not moral subjects and don't deserve consideration. (Pigs are). Where do you think animals live?

Causing harm to biomes is not the same thing as causing net harm to animals inside biomes. The base rate of harm done to animals inside biomes is immense and horrific.

You're doing crazy gymnastics right now. Eliminating biomes drives animals to extinction. In what world could you argue that doesn't deserve even a little moral consideration?

I'm not going to argue with someone who works this hard to be a contrarian.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even nice. People ate meat because fresh fruit and vegetables weren't available all year round or even at all. All good food has plants to make it taste nice. You can easily just skip the meat and go straight for the flavour.

The Alaskan word for "vegetables" is literally "boring food"

Mmm yeah, Alaska being well known for culinary excellence, of course.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even nice. People ate meat because fresh fruit and vegetables weren't available all year round or even at all. All good food has plants to make it taste nice. You can easily just skip the meat and go straight for the flavour.

Yeah, I hate being stuck with a luscious rare filet mignon basked in clarified butter, it's so flavorless that I have to chase it with celery, cucumbers, and lettuce just to stomach it... /s

Anything tastes good in butter. Try some okra or cabbage if you're ready for some flavour.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#135
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite questions to ask people is something like: "Imagine a button appears in front of you. Pressing it will snap all human beings painlessly out of existence. Do you push the button?" Some people get caught in minutiae about downstream effects, I tell them it can go however they want (house pets are free or gone too, planes land harmlessly, etc) In my circles, I've found it's about 50/50 button pushers…

Are you in silicon valley by any chance?

Even more, Xoogler.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism precludes slavery.

> Capitalism precludes slavery. Hmm? Capitalism neither precludes nor predates slavery.

Capitalism precisely precludes slavery. One of the most important and foundational of its principles is private property. The first, most natural, and universal instance of private property is the ownership of one's own body. Heck, we even have the phrase "private parts." Slavery requires the most basic violation of bodily autonomy. In other words, to permit slavery is to permit the violation of the most basic property right. I struggle to see how slavery could be compatible with capitalism.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#137
I can understand and respect no meat people’s position (vegans etc), because it is consistent. Even if I disagree generally.

But how can I comprehend people who eat meat and okay with killing animals, but get outraged by so and so practices of growing them? Isn’t it a textbook definition of inconsistency and hypocrisy?

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#138
post #58
post #22

The sooner we get to true lab grown meat the better Meat is nice but would be better if we can skip the whole suffering thing

This is a false dichotomy. The choice is not lab grown or suffering. Farmed animals could live happy, healthy lives and then be culled in a humane way. The problem is that it costs slightly more and our society is more concerned with cost than animal suffering.

> Farmed animals could live happy, healthy lives and then be culled in a humane way.

> The problem is that it costs slightly more and our society is more concerned with cost than animal suffering.

IDK about other livestock, but this definitely doesn't hold for chickens, one of the cheaper meat sources in the US. Switching to breeds that could live more than a very-few weeks(!) before getting too overweight to walk, would increase price by far more than "slightly more", and there's no hope of anything fitting any sane definition of "humane chicken farming" without that step.

I suspect it's also true for pigs, not necessarily the "we bred them so wrong that their very existence is a crime against god and nature" part but that the price increase from a "healthy, happy life" would be a lot larger than "slightly more". Maybe also cows, dunno about that one.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#139
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't strawman other people's comments.

I didn't intend to. I think that domesticated animals have long had a harmonious relationship with humans so I find it a bit difficult to believe that it's always an ethical dilemma. Pets are just the most obvious lens to identify that. I also think we need to be careful with the idea that we should entirely avoid suffering because it's impossible to do.

I think that it is what you know of the history of animal domestication and of pets that makes you think that there is an acceptable and low amount of suffering.

I think most people are aware of animal cruelty in factory farms (the chicken in cages, the pigs in cages, etc.), which represents 90% of all farm animals globally (https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/global-animal-farming-est...).

For pets, I don't think you understood what GP was saying: pet breeding involves massive amounts of death of puppies/kittens that aren't pretty enough or don't manage to survive infancy, the female breeders are basically confined to cages and "producing" all their life, some short-nosed breeds of dogs and cats are even illegal in some countries because they spend their life unable to breathe properly, pets are abandoned and killed, etc. The happy pets you see in the street are not representative of what it is to be a pet. But yes, these ones are not suffering.

As for long and harmonious, as much as we tend to see anything in the distant past as innocent, I'd remind you that the systematic killing of male chicks, the killing of veals to avoid them drinking all the milk, the killing of all animals as soon as productivity drops beyond a threshold, are not new practices. No animal wants to be enslaved. Same as no human wants to be enslaved.

I'm not attacking you, just attempting to give you an idea of why other commenters believe animal domestication is not ethical.

Re: New farm bill would condemn pigs to a lifetime in gestation crates

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You really have nothing productive to say in this thread, you sound irrationally angry. This is a pretty milquetoast philosophical question. If someone asks whether humanity is a net negative environmentally and your only response is to call them whiny losers, maybe you'd be better off on Twitter. I mean I know you understand what an abstract argument, is but you've chosen to interpret it in the laziest way possible…

The only people who find the question of erasing humanity milquetoast are terminally online losers.
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