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India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

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Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#131

Post by adithyassekhar »

yes_man wrote: post #49
Hendrikto wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making a lot of assumptions here. You assume, among other things, that AI has self-preservation drive, can be threatened, can be motivated, and above all that we know how to accomplish that and are already doing so. I would dispute all of that.

For now maybe not. (Maybe). But just as evolution in nature, isn’t it likely that in the future the AIs that have a preservation drive are the ones that survive and proliferate? Seeing they optimize for their survival and proliferation, and not blindly what they were trained on. I am not discounting this happening already, not by the LLMs necessarily being sentient but at least being intelligent enough to emulate sen…

Claude does this if you keep pestering it about something, it will go from friendly to shooing away you.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#132

Post by gortok »

torben-friis wrote: post #51
cmiles8 wrote: post #14

There will be many more things like this and it’s an elephant in the room for the supposed mass replacement of people with AI. Some human still has to be accountable. Someone has to get fired / go to jail when something screws up. You can make humans more productive but for the foreseeable future you can’t take the human out of the loop to have an AI implementation that’s not a disaster/lawsuit waiting to happen. Tha…

I think this is an even clearer case than usual. With software engineers and office work you don’t have legal limitations on who can perform the work, but they exist for lawyers and doctors for example. So if this is a tool, the fault lies fully in the user, and if this is treated as “another persons work” then the user knowingly passed the work onto someone not authorized to do it. Both end up in the user being guil…

> So if this is a tool, the fault lies fully in the user, and if this is treated as “another persons work” then the user knowingly passed the work onto someone not authorized to do it. Both end up in the user being guilty.

I am particularly against this point of view, because we as a community have long touted how computers can do the job better and faster, and that computers don’t make mistakes. When there are bugs, they’re seen as flaws in the system and rectified, by programmers.

When there are gaps between user expectations and how the software works, it’s our job to manage those gaps and reduce the gap.

In the case of AI, we are somehow, probably because we know it’s non-deterministic, turning that social contract we had developed with users on its head.

Now, that’s just the way it is and it’s up to them to know if the computer is lying to them. We have absolved ourselves of both the technical and the non-technical responsibilities to ensure the computer doesn’t lie to the user, or subverts their expectations, or acts in a way contrary to human logic.

AI may be different to us in that it’s non-deterministic, but that’s all the more reason that we’re responsible to ensure AI adoption aligns to the social contract we created with users. If we can’t do that with AI then it’s up to us to stop chasing endless dollars and be forthright with users that facts are optional when it comes to AI.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#133

Post by digitalPhonix »

arunc wrote: post #93

> Senior judges at the Supreme Court in Delhi have threatened consequences over the use of AI Setting AI aside for a moment, this reflects a broader issue in India and elsewhere. When institutions respond to new technologies with anger or threats rather than systemic thinking, it signals a deeper problem. The real challenge is not AI itself, but how complex systems adapt to change. Instead of reacting defensively, in…

> Setting AI aside for a moment, this reflects a broader issue in India and elsewhere. When institutions respond to new technologies with anger or threats rather than systemic thinking, it signals a deeper problem.

No, especially in this case when the first appeal to the high court resulted in the high court brushing it off as if nothing happened.

It was a reprimand two to institutes (the trial court and the high court) they have a job to do and they can't shirk that responsibility.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#134

Post by toast0 »

chris_wot wrote: post #18

In Australia, our universities are finding that a large proportion of Indian students have been using GenAI for cheating. Often they get away with it. I'm not saying that people other than Indian overseas students cheat, but it does seem more entrenched. I'd love to know why. It doesn't actually help in the long term!

I'm sure there's GenAI cheating from most communities. But the amount may vary based on the culture of learning.

Some people have the perspective that you're attending school in order to learn stuff, and the degree demonstrates you learned the stuff; some people have the perspective that you're attending school in order to get the degree and it doesn't matter so much how you check the boxes to get the degree.

This difference in perspective certainly didn't start with AI; it's been around for a long time. Some education cultures push more rote learning and some push more mastery of the subject. There's pros and cons, and pursing rote learning doesn't preclude mastery, and mastery often involves requires some amount of rote learning.

When you transplant a contingent of students between philosophies, you get conflict where there's differences.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#135

Post by bluGill »

adithyassekhar wrote: post #130
WarmWash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why so many companies are now saying they see zero ROI from AI efforts. I strongly suspect this is because workers are pocketing the gains for themselves. Report XYZ usually takes a week to write. It now takes a day. The other 4 days are spent looking busy. The MIT report that found all these companies were getting nowhere with AI, also found that almost every worker was using AI almost daily. But using their person…

Quiet the contrary, companies layoff all roles (frontend, backend, qa, devops, even ui/ux) and handle a project to one competent dev. And asks them to deliver it in 1/3rd the time it would have took with a proper team. It's happening at places I know. This thread on reddit is 100% same: https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/s/EIksvB15tm I can't even imagine the stress from context switching, and since people don't…

Every downturn you see the same thing - mass layoffs blamed on whatever the latest fad is. In the end it was the economy not the fad.

When it isn't the economy the gains are used to build more / better, not get rid of people. (not all fads have real gains, but when they do)

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#136

Post by [deleted] »

chris_wot wrote: post #18

In Australia, our universities are finding that a large proportion of Indian students have been using GenAI for cheating. Often they get away with it. I'm not saying that people other than Indian overseas students cheat, but it does seem more entrenched. I'd love to know why. It doesn't actually help in the long term!

[deleted]

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#137

Post by cindyllm »

21asdffdsa12 wrote: post #129
general_reveal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, AI is going to be like when land lines became unnecessary when cellphones showed up in India. India may get to skip an entire intellectual generation due to the ability of a cheap model to educate (in any language). The narrative that an entire population are “worth” less, paid less , know less, live less … Fuck this less shit, embrace the paradigm shift. God is finally providing the remedial support through the…

Or you are proven wrong entirely, again and again. And it turns out, that the legacy, unimportant and derelict of the past - culture is all decisive It turns out that only some cultures can generate high trust societies, capable to form institutions. And you prolonged suffering, by declaring that all cultures are created equal. History may write you down a monster.

[dead]

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#138

Post by ghywertelling »

the_af wrote: post #16
codegladiator wrote: post #3

> She had no intention to misquote or misrepresent the rulings and that "the mistake occurred solely due to the reliance on an automatic source", the high court wrote I don't think the intention matters here. Its the same deal with every profession using llm to "automate" their work. The onus in on the professional, not the llm. Arstechnica case could have been justified by same manner otherwise. Not knowing the law…

They cannot even claim they weren't aware of the danger. LLM hallucinations have been a discussed topic, not some obscure failure mode. Almost every article on problems with AI mentions this. So the judge was lazy, incompetent, or both.

Or she was conniving like Skylar in Breaking Bad as she convinced the investigator that she got hired because she seduced the owner.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#139

Post by WarmWash »

adithyassekhar wrote: post #130
WarmWash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why so many companies are now saying they see zero ROI from AI efforts. I strongly suspect this is because workers are pocketing the gains for themselves. Report XYZ usually takes a week to write. It now takes a day. The other 4 days are spent looking busy. The MIT report that found all these companies were getting nowhere with AI, also found that almost every worker was using AI almost daily. But using their person…

Quiet the contrary, companies layoff all roles (frontend, backend, qa, devops, even ui/ux) and handle a project to one competent dev. And asks them to deliver it in 1/3rd the time it would have took with a proper team. It's happening at places I know. This thread on reddit is 100% same: https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/s/EIksvB15tm I can't even imagine the stress from context switching, and since people don't…

SWE's are a minority of the white collar workforce.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#140

Post by chii »

Latty wrote: post #127
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human is responsible. That's the fix. I don't care if you got the results from an LLM or from reading cracks in the sidewalk; you are responsible for what you say, and especially for what you say professionally. I mean, that's almost the definition of a professional. And if you can't play by those rules, then maybe you aren't a professional, even if you happened to sneak your way into a job where professionalism…

This doesn't solve the problem, because companies will force people to use these tools and demand they work faster, eventually resulting in people slipping. People will have to choose between being fired for being "too slow", or taking the risk they end up liable. Most people can't afford to just lose their job, and will end up being pressured into taking the risk, then the companies will liability-wash by giving the…

> rotated out to take the blame for mistakes.

companies cannot rotate people out to take the blame - the company would have to suffer a fine for there to be a punishment.

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