To me it means “I didn’t want to come up with an intelligible syntax for this”. Shell scripts have many dark corners and sharp edges like this is one.
What does " 2>&1 " mean?
131–140 of 260 posts
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#132I find it easier to understand in terms of the Unix syscall API. `2>&1` literally translates as `dup2(1, 2)`, and indeed that's exactly how it works. In the classic unix shells that's all that happens; in more modern shells there may be some additional internal bookkeeping to remember state. Understanding it as dup2 means it's easier to understand how successive redirections work, though you also have to know that re…
Respectfully, what was the purpose of this comment, really? And I also disagree, your suggestion is not easier. The & operator is quite intuitive as it is, and conveys the intention.
Perhaps it is intuitive for you based on how you learned it. But their explanation is more intuitive for anyone dealing with low level stuff like POSIX-style embedded programming, low level unix-y C programming, etc, since it ties into what they already know. There is also a limit to how much you can learn about the underlying system and its unseen potential by learning from the abstractions alone.
> Respectfully, what was the purpose of this comment, really?
Judging by its replies alone, not everyone considers it purposeless. And even though I know enough to use shell redirections correctly, I still found that comment insightful. This is why I still prefer human explanations over AI. It often contains information you didn't think you needed. HN is one of the sources of the gradually dwindling supply of such information. That comment is still on-topic. Please don't discourage such habits.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#133rc [1] replaced it with a far more telling >[1=2] and >[1=] for closing.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#134I find it easier to understand in terms of the Unix syscall API. `2>&1` literally translates as `dup2(1, 2)`, and indeed that's exactly how it works. In the classic unix shells that's all that happens; in more modern shells there may be some additional internal bookkeeping to remember state. Understanding it as dup2 means it's easier to understand how successive redirections work, though you also have to know that re…
This is probably one of the reasons why many find POSIX shell languages to be unpleasant. There are too many syntactical sugars that abstract too much of the underlying mechanisms away, to the level that we don't get it unless someone explains it. Compare this with Lisps, for example. There may be only one branching construct or a looping construct. Yet, they provide more options than regular programming languages using macros. And this fact is not hidden from us. You know that all of them ultimately expand to the limited number of special forms.
The shell syntactical sugars also have some weird gotchas. The &2>&1 question and its answer are a good example of that. You're just trading one complexity (low level knowledge) for another (the long list of syntax rules). Shell languages break the rule of not letting abstractions get in the way of insight and intuitiveness.
I know that people will argue that shell languages are not programming languages, and that terseness is important for the former. And yet, we still have people complaining about it. This is the programmer ego and the sysadmin ego of people clashing with each other. After all, nobody is purely just one of those two.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#135It's a reminder of how archaic the systems we use are. File descriptors are like handing pointers to the users of your software. At least allow us to use names instead of numbers. And sh/bash's syntax is so weird because the programmer at the time thought it was convenient to do it like that. Nobody ever asked a user.
You can do: 2>/dev/stdout Which is about the same as `2>&1` but with a friendlier name for STDOUT. And this way `2> /dev/stdout`, with the space, also works, whereas `2> &1` doesn't which confuses many. But it's behavior isn't exactly the same and might not work in all situations. And of course I wish you could use a friendlier name for STDERR instead of `2>`
> You can do:
>
> 2>/dev/stdout
The situation where this is going to cause confusion is when you do this for multiple commands. It looks like they're all writing to a single file. Of course, that file is not an ordinary file - it's a device file. But even that isn't enough. You have to know that each command sees its own incarnation of /dev/stdout, which refers to its own fd1.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#136I first encountered this thirty four years ago and I still hate it. Almost as much as I hate when people ask me to explain it.
Look man, I didn’t invent this stupid shit, and I’m not telling you it’s brilliant, so don’t kill the messenger.
I thought I’d seen somewhere that zsh had a better way to do this but I must have imagined it. Or maybe I’m confusing it with fish.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#137Always wondered how the parser managed the ambiguity between & for file descriptors and & to start background tasks. (And without a good mental model, I kept forgetting where to put the & correctly in redirects)
Treating ">&" as a distinct operator actually makes an elegant solution here. I like the idea.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#138I find it easier to understand in terms of the Unix syscall API. `2>&1` literally translates as `dup2(1, 2)`, and indeed that's exactly how it works. In the classic unix shells that's all that happens; in more modern shells there may be some additional internal bookkeeping to remember state. Understanding it as dup2 means it's easier to understand how successive redirections work, though you also have to know that re…
This is probably one of the reasons why many find POSIX shell languages to be unpleasant. There are too many syntactical sugars that abstract too much of the underlying mechanisms away, to the level that we don't get it unless someone explains it. Compare this with Lisps, for example. There may be only one branching construct or a looping construct. Yet, they provide more options than regular programming languages us…
make 2>&1 | tee m.log is in my muscle memory, like adding a & at the end of a command to launch a job, or ctrl+z bg when I forget it, or tar cfz (without the minus so that the order is not important). Without this terseness, people would build myriads of personal alias.
This redirection relies on foundational concepts (file descriptors, stdin 0, stdout 1, stderr 2) that need to be well understood when using unix. IMO, this helps to build insight and intuitiveness. A pipe is not magic, it is just a simple operation on file descriptors. Complexity exists (buffering, zombies), but not there.
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
The aws cli has a set of porcelain for s3 access (aws s3) and plumbing commands for lower level access to advanced controls (aws s3api). The plumbing command aws s3api get-object doesn't support stdout natively, so if you need it and want to use it in a pipeline (e.g. pv), you would naively do something like $ aws s3api get-object --bucket foo --key bar /dev/stdout | pv ... Unfortunately, aws s3api already prints the…
Would be nice if `curl` had something to dump headers to a third file descriptor while outputting the response on stdout.
[deleted]
Re: What does " 2>&1 " mean?
#140That’s nothing, try `&>`.
This is one of those places where Bash diverges from POSIX. The standard says `echo &>/dev/null' is two commands, namely `echo &' and `>/dev/null', but Bash interprets it as redirect both stdout and stderr of `echo' to `/dev/null' both in normal and POSIX mode.