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A Programmer's Loss of Identity

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Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#131

Post by ferguess_k »

softwaredoug wrote: post #13

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

> If society collapses because 80% of white collar jobs disappear, I guess I'll just be in my basement wanting to know how a linux kernel driver works.

I'll probably do the same (actually doing this), camping in the woods or something, using a camper van.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#132

Post by ferguess_k »

iberator wrote: post #48
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

I lost my job as a programmer and I think it's over for me. No, you will not hack the device drivers in the basement but you're gonna be flipping burgers and out of cash or energy for anything else. Worst thing: you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers without experience or young age... Once you are out of the field, and your money is gone: suddenly you are useless, old trash. No one even wants to employ ex p…

This is probably true, TBH. I can't think of any work that I can do whence I lose my job. Trade, Uber...those are not for me. I'm not competitive enough with people who bagged so many years of experience. At best I'd be at the lowest echelon and might as well just collect benefit from the government.

I really have no idea what I'm going to do, but I can probably still sit in the basement hacking kernels when I'm done with my whatever day job.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#133

Post by ferguess_k »

steve1977 wrote: post #99
iberator wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost my job as a programmer and I think it's over for me. No, you will not hack the device drivers in the basement but you're gonna be flipping burgers and out of cash or energy for anything else. Worst thing: you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers without experience or young age... Once you are out of the field, and your money is gone: suddenly you are useless, old trash. No one even wants to employ ex p…

Who's gonna be able to afford burgers?

Go Costco! Costco is now my official restaurant whenever the family wants a bit of treat.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#134

Post by boston_clone »

steve1977 wrote: post #105
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burgers are cheap! You can easily find a place that has something meat-adjacent with too much bun and certified cheesonium topping for less than $30. Don't just try it once, start a layaway plan now so you can enjoy that three times a year!

I wish this was sarcasm...

It is. Here’s a vegan cheeseburger for four dollars in a popular west coast metro.

https://www.eatfaceplant.com/menu

They even have a working shake machine.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#135

Post by ferguess_k »

kuboble wrote: post #67

What resonates the most with me in the article is this quote > I was so naïve that I thought progress could only go one direction, because that’s all I’d ever known. As kids growing up in Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s the world felt like its getting better every year. More peace, fewer borders, more opportunities, better technology. Everything was getting better every year and we took it for granted that this is…

I kinda think I am lucky to spend my whole life in a rather peaceful, prosperous time. But the good time is almost over.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#136

Post by softwaredoug »

fuse711 wrote: post #129
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

> I feel like I got into programming when it was seen as low-status profession in the late 80s. No, you didn't! If you are 45, then you were 5-10 years old in the late 80s. You might have started playing around with programming at that time, but you didn't "get into" it in any professional sense. I am willing to bet anything that you had no knowledge, let alone concept, of the professional status of programming at th…

Fair. My perception was my parents thinking this is a dumb waste of time.

When I eventually went to college in the late 90s / early 2000s that attitude seemed to switch. Add to that today's coding bootcamps for kids. It seems like quite a different world.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#137

Post by amarant »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #127
amarant wrote: post #125

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming My very hot take is that I do more of this now that I have access to Claude code than I did before. The above is the fun part of programming. You know how they say wood working is 90% sanding?…

The problem is your boss makes you automate the fun parts as well.

Not if he listens to the advise his senior engineers give him. Like I said, Claude really isn't very good at the fun parts, there are reasons for your boss to not automate that stuff. Plus it's very little gain. By automating the sanding which is 90%, you already have a 10x gain in productivity, with no loss in quality. Automate the fun parts too, your quality will go to shit, and you'll operate at 11x base speed, rather than 10x. The difference just isn't big enough.

And that 11x will turn to 0.5x once the code is fit for serving in an Italian restaurant. Which at 11x speed will be like the second week or something.

10x speed is sustainable. I think. If not, then 9x speed probably is. Or 8x. The trick is finding the highest sustainable speed multiplier, and it's not entirely obvious to be yet what it is, but it's in that ballpark somewhere, I'm pretty sure.

And if your boss does not listen to the advise of the senior engineers? That's a bad boss, We've had those since forever. The way to deal with those is typically to find a new one.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#138

Post by pjmlp »

m463 wrote: post #91
kuboble wrote: post #67

What resonates the most with me in the article is this quote > I was so naïve that I thought progress could only go one direction, because that’s all I’d ever known. As kids growing up in Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s the world felt like its getting better every year. More peace, fewer borders, more opportunities, better technology. Everything was getting better every year and we took it for granted that this is…

I think many of us take it for granted. I wonder what the view on the ground was in the late 1930's and early 1940's. Or a more recent time. I think how mechanical engineers felt in silicon valley over the last 40 years as basically 'making and shipping" was all exported to china. I have some mechanical engineer friends whose life got smaller and smaller.

I can tell you from Portuguese point of view, I could have studied close to home, but that would mean EE, and most interesting jobs in the early 1990's were already leaving the country, and unless one hit gold with Portugal Telecom, there were very few alternatives in a couple of factories or repair shops, and most EEs ended up doing coding.

Thus I went directly to Informatics Engineering and 300 km away.

Now were the ones into the line of sight of late capitalism.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#139

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

meager_wikis wrote: post #97
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #49

I love programming, but the idea of hanging out with and chatting with other programmers as a regular part of my social life leaves me cold. I'm happy to be a part of online conversations about code and hardware and design, but away from the computer ... not really. I'd rather be talking about food, or hiking or travelling or culture or relationships. There have been very few people I've ever met in person that I rea…

Same. I see programming as a way to accomplish some sort of task. When artists hang out, do they spend their time talking about brush strokes or editing techniques? From my experience not really, they talk about the higher up stuff. Themes or storytelling or influences are what they usually talk about. I want to operate on the higher plane.

Right. I'd much rather talk about the pros and cons that the arrival of cheap DAWs have had on musicking in all its forms than the details of how we schedule audio processing in one of those DAWs.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#140

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

jbstack wrote: post #61
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #49

I love programming, but the idea of hanging out with and chatting with other programmers as a regular part of my social life leaves me cold. I'm happy to be a part of online conversations about code and hardware and design, but away from the computer ... not really. I'd rather be talking about food, or hiking or travelling or culture or relationships. There have been very few people I've ever met in person that I rea…

Why are they mutually exclusive? Can't you hang out with and chat with other programmers ... about food, hiking, travelling, culture, or relationships? In the same way that lawyers don't have to talk about law, and doctors don't have to talk about medicine when they hang out. When I think about my friendships, it's rare that we ever spend any significant amount of time talking about our work.

One reason for their mutual exclusivity is that I am self-employed, have worked at home for the last 30+ years and live in a tiny village in New Mexico. "Other programmers" is not a thing that just happens in my life, and I'm generally reluctant (one might say "loathed") to go track them down when the benefits of doing so seem pretty thin.
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