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Where did all the starships go?

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Re: Where did all the starships go?

#131

Post by nephihaha »

WalterBright wrote: post #123
chasil wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, we've realized the scientific reality that traveling faster than light is likely impossible, and the vast distances to other habitable planets would mean tens of thousands of years of travel even with the most efficient technology. Interstellar space is also hostile to life, and any life present at the destination will not use the same DNA coding for protein (if gene expression even works that way). We also do…

And yet we still have a solar system, empty of life other than Earth, we can expand to. Why try to cross an ocean when everything we could want is across the river? Two things baffle me: 1. The idea that Terran life is toxic and must not be allowed on other planets in the solar system. 2. The one person who is advancing our space faring abilities by leaps and bounds is routinely vilified and excoriated on HackerNews.

1) There may well be other biospheres in the solar system. There is some indirect and inconclusive evidence of microbial life on Mars, and even in the Venusian atmosphere. This dates back to results from the Viking and Venera, as well as more recent research. Earth life could be destructive to native life in these places, and vice versa (since they would likely be extremophiles) resulting in invasive species.

2) Musk is putting a lot of money into these things but he is still heavily subsidised by US government money and facilities (a loophole in the Outer Space Treaty allows individuals and corporations to claim other planets but not countries.)

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#132

Post by nine_k »

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #122
chasil wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, we've realized the scientific reality that traveling faster than light is likely impossible, and the vast distances to other habitable planets would mean tens of thousands of years of travel even with the most efficient technology. Interstellar space is also hostile to life, and any life present at the destination will not use the same DNA coding for protein (if gene expression even works that way). We also do…

You don’t need to go faster than light. Once you approach anywhere near the speed of light, time slows down so much that journey time becomes irrelevant.

Interstellar space contains neutral hydrogen atoms. Hitting a spaceship, they would produce electromagnetic radiation. When the collision speed goes past about 0.25c, the radiation becomes hard gamma rays which are dangerous to living things, and cannot be efficiently shielded against.

At this speed, the time dilation is slightly above 3%, so you're still not going to reach even Alpha Centauri in one human lifetime, or maybe you barely can.

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#133

Post by wolvoleo »

Recurecur wrote: post #94
squeaky-clean wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science Fiction doesn't have to be fantasy, it can be speculative. But if your setting or plot relies on something we know to be scientifically untrue, and you don't put some effort into explaining why it somehow works in your setting, it's fantasy and not speculative. Someone like Asimov never considered his books to be fantasy and that he could just insert whatever he wanted with no justification. In fact, he never…

FTL starships in an SF story don’t need a detailed explanation, just a new invention. It’s the exact same thing as a speculative story in the 1920s discussing supersonic flight, even though the jet engine hadn’t been invented yet. For instance “Tunnel in the Sky” bypassed the whole issue in the 50’s, later imitated by “Stargate”…

True but at that point objects travelling faster than sound had been demonstrated.

It was just hard to engineer a manned plane that could do it. For example during WWII the V2 rockets travelled much faster than sound. They were just unmanned. Or more simple, bullets were supersonic for longer too.

What I mean is, nobody thought the sound barrier was a hard limit we could never break.

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#134

Post by nephihaha »

xixixao wrote: post #125
WalterBright wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we still have a solar system, empty of life other than Earth, we can expand to. Why try to cross an ocean when everything we could want is across the river? Two things baffle me: 1. The idea that Terran life is toxic and must not be allowed on other planets in the solar system. 2. The one person who is advancing our space faring abilities by leaps and bounds is routinely vilified and excoriated on HackerNews.

2. I’m a big fan of the guy, except he went completely off the rails on political stuff… It’s hard that both can be true at the same time.

There are a lot of ethical issues surrounding Neuralink and how it would be used. It might be good for certain medical stuff but I can see how it can be abused.

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#135

Post by WalterBright »

krapp wrote: post #127
WalterBright wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we still have a solar system, empty of life other than Earth, we can expand to. Why try to cross an ocean when everything we could want is across the river? Two things baffle me: 1. The idea that Terran life is toxic and must not be allowed on other planets in the solar system. 2. The one person who is advancing our space faring abilities by leaps and bounds is routinely vilified and excoriated on HackerNews.

>Why try to cross an ocean when everything we could want is across the river? That "river" is still vast and nothing we want is on the other side. >1. The idea that Terran life is toxic and must not be allowed on other planets in the solar system. It's less the idea that Terran life is toxic and more that we're still hoping to find some forms of primitive life elsewhere in the solar system, and don't want those effor…

> nothing we want is on the other side

Wow.

> You decided the rest of the solar system is dead, not the scientific community.

The odds are heavily stacked against other life existing, and get worse with every probe. Of course, nobody can prove there is no other life. And it's not very credible that Terran life will out-compete locally evolved life.

And the idea that preserving some slime mold on Pluto justifies us constraining ourselves to Earth is just sad.

> If you really can't comprehend the reason why Elon Musk is villified by people then there's no point in trying to explain it to you.

I once asked another Musk-hater on HN why? All he could come up with is Musk called a diver a pedo-boy. I pointed out that Musk only did that because the diver went on national TV and told Musk to shove his submarine up his backside.

If you've got a better reason, I'd love to hear it!

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#136

Post by WalterBright »

nephihaha wrote: post #131
WalterBright wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we still have a solar system, empty of life other than Earth, we can expand to. Why try to cross an ocean when everything we could want is across the river? Two things baffle me: 1. The idea that Terran life is toxic and must not be allowed on other planets in the solar system. 2. The one person who is advancing our space faring abilities by leaps and bounds is routinely vilified and excoriated on HackerNews.

1) There may well be other biospheres in the solar system. There is some indirect and inconclusive evidence of microbial life on Mars, and even in the Venusian atmosphere. This dates back to results from the Viking and Venera, as well as more recent research. Earth life could be destructive to native life in these places, and vice versa (since they would likely be extremophiles) resulting in invasive species. 2) Musk…

> There is some indirect and inconclusive evidence of microbial life on Mars, and even in the Venusian atmosphere. This dates back to results from the Viking and Venera, as well as more recent research.

Yes, I've been hearing that forever. Every probe shrinks the envelope on the possibility.

> Earth life could be destructive to native life in these places,

Better us than slime mold.

> and vice versa (since they would likely be extremophiles) resulting in invasive species.

Perhaps. If anyone was transporting things back from there, there'd be a long space voyage where any such toxicity to the astronauts would be pretty clear.

2. Musk is not getting subsidies. He does get government contracts, where he exchanges rockets for money. That is not a subsidy, like if I make boxes and sell them to the government I am not getting a subsidy.

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#137

Post by nephihaha »

flohofwoe wrote: post #26
delichon wrote: post #7

The starships left with the optimism. In the 50s there was a greater demand for stories with an unconstrained vision of the future where growth and expansion amount to flourishing. Later generations that lived in the excesses of growth saw it as the source of an intensifying dystopia. They stood athwart history and demanded decelleration. Star Trek lost ground to Terminator, Foundation to Neuromancer. Escaping sidewa…

I don't know, to the East of the Iron Curtain science fiction wasn't mostly about future optimism (at least after the initial "we're building a better society" optimism had been brutally murdered during the 1950s and 60s), but often a critical mirror of then-current society transported into the future to escape state censorship. Maybe it's as simple as free societies not having the evolutionary pressure to produce gr…

There are some brilliant SF writers from the eastern bloc. They had to write to get around censorship and the official line. Stanislaw Lem is great.

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#138

Post by WalterBright »

nephihaha wrote: post #134
xixixao wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2. I’m a big fan of the guy, except he went completely off the rails on political stuff… It’s hard that both can be true at the same time.

There are a lot of ethical issues surrounding Neuralink and how it would be used. It might be good for certain medical stuff but I can see how it can be abused.

> There are a lot of ethical issues surrounding Neuralink and how it would be used

Like what? (There are always ethical issues with new medical technology.)

> It might be good for certain medical stuff

Yes, like giving sight to the blind! What a monster Musk is!

P.S. two of my largest medical fears are becoming paralyzed or going blind. Neuralink has promise in making these treatable. I'm all for it!

Re: Where did all the starships go?

#140

Post by givinguflac »

WalterBright wrote: post #136
nephihaha wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) There may well be other biospheres in the solar system. There is some indirect and inconclusive evidence of microbial life on Mars, and even in the Venusian atmosphere. This dates back to results from the Viking and Venera, as well as more recent research. Earth life could be destructive to native life in these places, and vice versa (since they would likely be extremophiles) resulting in invasive species. 2) Musk…

> There is some indirect and inconclusive evidence of microbial life on Mars, and even in the Venusian atmosphere. This dates back to results from the Viking and Venera, as well as more recent research. Yes, I've been hearing that forever. Every probe shrinks the envelope on the possibility. > Earth life could be destructive to native life in these places, Better us than slime mold. > and vice versa (since they would…

2. How do you define loans, tax credits and other subsidies then? You claim it’s this person specifically advancing space faring capabilities- which literally would not be possible without the US government. So please elaborate, as you’re not making sense.
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