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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#131

Post by its_magic »

its_magic wrote: post #112
M95D wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm running Gentoo without dbus and I'm stuck at gtk 3.24.34. I would love to see those patches. Your site appears to be down.

It's just HTTP only (no SSL) and there's nothing there. ... until now! Here's some nice GTK3 patches for you: http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-disabling-atk-b... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-transparent-win... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-wheel-scrolling... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-appearance-tweaks-and... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-disable-mnemoni…

Who's the guy with Firefox 147 32-bit x86 who downloaded a patch? Nice to see there's still at least a few 32-bit users left out there. My system cross compiles to i686, and builds as multilib (both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries) for x86-64 as well, FYI.

Some of these User Agents have to be fake. Android 6.0.1 with Chrome 144, really? lol

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#132

Post by dTal »

cyberax wrote: post #115
nomel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the maintainers don't care. I'm not sure that's fair. I think better proof of this would be a rejected PR rather than a neglected bug report. This is Linux, after all. Problems found with specific hardware are almost always solved by people with that hardware, not the maintainers, who are usually busy with the 99%.

The problem here is more fundamental. Lennart refused to make all the /etc/fstab options available in regular mount units. And yes, there was an issue, no I'm too tired to look for it. The wording was pretty much: "Give up, and gtfo, this is not going to happen. Just because." I'm convinced that systemd can't be fixed by its current team of maintainers. They are just... untidy. I don't know about you, but if I end up…

This is one example of a more general complaint about systemd and related projects: they force policy, rather than simply providing mechanisms.

I recently did a deep dive on my laptop because I was curious about an oddity - the /sys file to change my screen backlight (aside, why /sys and not /dev anyway?) was writable only by root - yet any desktop shell running as my user had no problem reacting to brightness hotkeys. I wondered, how did this privilege escalation work? Where was the policy, and what property of my user account granted it the right to do this?

It turns out the answer is that the desktop shells are firing off a dbus request to org.freedesktop.login1, which is caught by systemd-logind - or elogind in my case, since I do not care for systemd. A login manager seemed an odd place for screen brightness privilege escalation, but hey if it works whatever - it seemed like logind functioned as a sort of miscellaneous grab bag of vaguely console-related stuff. Generally speaking, it consults polkit rules to determine whether a user is allowed to do a thing.

Not screen brightness, though. No polkit rules. Nothing in pkaction. logind was unilaterally consenting to change the brightness on my behalf. And on what grounds? It wasn't documented anywhere so I had to check the source code, where I found a slew of hardcoded criteria that mostly revolve around physical presence at the machine. Want to change screen brightness over ssh? Oh but why would you ever want to do that? Hope you have root access, you weirdo.

I removed elogind. A few odds and ends broke. But nobody tells me what to do with my machine.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#133

Post by rcxdude »

adastra22 wrote: post #118
spijdar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn about what stuff? Linux? System V UNIX? I haven't done LFS since my tweens (and I'm almost 30 now), but I remember the sysvinit portion amounted to, past building and installing the init binary, downloading and extracting a bunch of shell scripts into the target directory and following some instructions for creating the right symlinks. Obviously, you can go and check out the init scripts (or any other individua…

For me, Linux From Scratch is not about compiling linux from scratch, but on building up an entire Linux distro from the ground up, understanding how every piece fits together. Doing it via systemd is like drawing a big black box, writing LINUX on the side, and calling it a day.

You are necessarily working with very big blocks when you're doing this, anyway. You don't do a deep dive on a whole bunch of other topics in LFS, because otherwise the scope would become too big.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#134

Post by rcxdude »

cf100clunk wrote: post #59
raggi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he is counting every c file in the systemd _repository_ which houses multiple projects, libraries and daemons. he equates that to the c file count for a single init. it's a disingenuous comparison. systemd-init is a small slice of the code in the systemd repository.

I'm guessing he shares my belief that systemd-init cannot exist in the wild on its own, correct? When you want a teacup, you have to get the whole 12 place dinner set.

IIRC the mandatory components are the init system, udev, dbus, and journald. Journald is probably the most otherwise-optional feeling one (udev and dbus are both pretty critical for anything linux regardless), though you can put it into a passthrough mode so you don't have to deal with its log format if you don't want. Everything else is optional.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#135

Post by its_magic »

its_magic wrote: post #131
its_magic wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just HTTP only (no SSL) and there's nothing there. ... until now! Here's some nice GTK3 patches for you: http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-disabling-atk-b... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-transparent-win... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-allow-wheel-scrolling... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-appearance-tweaks-and... http://killthe.net/patches/gtk-3.24.43-disable-mnemoni…

Who's the guy with Firefox 147 32-bit x86 who downloaded a patch? Nice to see there's still at least a few 32-bit users left out there. My system cross compiles to i686, and builds as multilib (both 32-bit and 64-bit libraries) for x86-64 as well, FYI. Some of these User Agents have to be fake. Android 6.0.1 with Chrome 144, really? lol

Some wise guy has a "Linux/SystemD" user agent. lol

This fella would like to have a word with you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfELJU1mRMg

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#136

Post by LeFantome »

josteink wrote: post #70
antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

> All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers. Popular desktop environments are increasingly depending on Linux-only things. KDE has officially removed support for FreeBSD in Plasma login…

> Freedesktop wants to kill X11

There is a difference of opinion. Freedesktop wants to "stabilize" X11. That does mean that they do not want to evolve Xorg. However, it does not mean that you cannot keep using it or that they are going to take it away. In fact, it is still being maintained and will be for a long time.

You can interpret the rejecting of patches and banning of developers as political. However others see the rejection and banning as protecting the stablity that is the goal.

If your goal is for Xorg to evolve and not to stabalize (fair), you may prefer Xlibre as a project.

Phoenix looks pretty cool too.

KDE Plasma and GNOME are trying to kill X11. Or, at least, they do not want to maintain support for it in their projecs. And COSMIC did not bother to add support for X11 at all. That will probably be the trend on desktop Linux.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#137

Post by LeFantome »

josteink wrote: post #116
Timon3 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers. Are you referring to the developer of Xlibre, who submitted multiple broken patches & kept breaking ABI compatibility for little to no reason[0]? Or someone else? [0]: see discussion & linked issues in the announcement https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44199502

I’m talking about that developer, yes. And I’m sure there’s more to the story than just ABI compatibility. He wanted X11 to thrive. Freedesktop however has a goal for Wayland ultimately to replace X11, right? X11 should die. This is not hyperbole. It’s a stated goal. So I think there’s more to the story than the simplified ABI aspect often mentioned here on HN. Also Gnome killing X11 support is real. So is KDE backin…

> I’m sure there’s more to the story than just ABI compatibility

The number one goal for the Xwayland / Xorg devs is stability. Breaking ABI compatibility is a pretty big problem if stability is your goal.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#138

Post by LeFantome »

tapoxi wrote: post #24
smartmic wrote: post #8

It's a pity. It's also a step back from valuing the Unix philosophy, which has its merits, especially for those with a "learning the system from scratch" mindset. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for systemd.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I find it funny that the anti-systemd crowd hates it because it doesn't "follow the Unix philosophy", but they tend to also hate Wayland which does and moves away from a clunky monolith (Xorg)

This one bothers me too.

Systemd and Xorg are very similar in many ways. I do not know how you hate Systemd and love Xorg unless your real problem is just change.

And, while I like Wayland, I think that liking the Wayland architecture should have you disliking Systemd. But that is just me.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#139

Post by LeFantome »

greatgib wrote: post #105

The proof in the end that SystemD is a cancer in the Linux ecosystem. Officially it is just a stack and you can decide to use another one if you don't like it. Unofficially RedHat money ensured that other critical stacks will depend heavily on it so that you can't easily swap without replacing the whole ecosystem.

The whole GNU / Red Hat platform is this way. Try switching out Glibc. You get the same "you have to use all our stuff" dependencies.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#140

Post by its_magic »

p_ing wrote: post #113
its_magic wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been saying for years that Microsoft would eventually deprecate WinNT and switch Windows over to a Linux foundation. Things seem to be slowly but continually moving in that direction.

Makes no sense to dump a superior kernel and executive for Linux. The Win32 layer is the issue, not the underbelly.

They might use the NT kernel and their own version of the Linux userland.

I'd be open to the idea, if the kernel were open sourced (MIT licensed?) so I could play with it too.

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